Post by: twosmoke595 on November 23, 2012, 12:15:49 AM
ear MXA,
If you were the rule makers what would you propose for engine size in the two classes to not give one engine type an advantage over another? Since a 450cc four-stroke overpowers a 250cc two-stroke, what size two-stroke would be equal to a 450 four-stroke? Would a 300cc bike be a match? 360? What would you suggest?
Handicapping is how the sport got in the mess it is in today. In order to promote four-stroke engines the AMA gave them a massive displacement advantage. Unfortunately, the AMA guessed wrong on the displacements and four-strokes have now far outstripped the two-strokes they were trying to match. We don?t think that formulas are the way to go. The AMA should change the rules to equalize the displacement in both the 250 and 450 classes. The powers-that-be could easily write a rule that says, ?The maximum displacement in the 250 class is 250cc regardless of the engine type and in the 450 class it is 450cc regardless of engine type."
Post by: riffraff on November 23, 2012, 12:42:29 AM
Post by: twosmoke595 on November 23, 2012, 12:49:37 AM
What would be wrong with going back to the original rules, 125, 250 and open class? The only displacement advantage would be in the open class and they're so powerful it doesn't matter, and the 125 class would be all 2 stroke
exactly, no reason they shouldn't do that, and screw the other mfg who dont have 125's or 250 2 strokes anymore, the guys who would run the 250 2 strokes would most likely be privateers and smaller teams anyway so it shouldn't matter. And with the rockstar yamaha team, since they have so many riders, i'm sure at least one of them would ride a 250 2 stroke.
Post by: luthier269 on November 23, 2012, 04:03:21 AM
Sad part is most of the racers today have no idea how good it used to be. I remember racing the winter am in the late 70's in the 125C class and we started a double gate with 80 bike's today you would be lucky to get 16 to 20 riders in the equivalent 250C class. We all know the reasons.
Also I kept my son on a 125 when he left his 85. It fit him perfect and did not have scary power he learned how to make it go fast and loves it. Three years ago we were one of the only 125,s out there in the 250C class.
Today most of the up and comming fast riders 13/14 year olds are all riding 125.s. Most of the tracks are now offering 125 two stroke only Class and are fielding 20 or more riders. Lots of new Yamahas and KTM's and even a few huskys and the huskys are kickin butt.
Most of the tracks now run AMA amature rules 250 T against 250 F and they have been pretty even. And also have let open two strokes run against 450 four strokes last year I saw a guy on a 1979 or 80 yz465 and get the hole shot. Any way I've rambled on enough but the 125/250/open works best in my opinion!
Post by: TMKIWI on November 23, 2012, 05:30:07 AM
What would be wrong with going back to the original rules, 125, 250 and open class? The only displacement advantage would be in the open class and they're so powerful it doesn't matter, and the 125 class would be all 2 stroke
x 1000.
Post by: TotalNZ on November 23, 2012, 07:43:28 AM
What would be wrong with going back to the original rules, 125, 250 and open class? The only displacement advantage would be in the open class and they're so powerful it doesn't matter, and the 125 class would be all 2 strokeWORD!
Post by: shanes on November 23, 2012, 10:21:56 AM
What would be wrong with going back to the original rules, 125, 250 and open class? The only displacement advantage would be in the open class and they're so powerful it doesn't matter, and the 125 class would be all 2 stroke
ill vote for that
Post by: scotty dog on November 23, 2012, 10:39:17 AM
What would be wrong with going back to the original rules, 125, 250 and open class? The only displacement advantage would be in the open class and they're so powerful it doesn't matter, and the 125 class would be all 2 strokeno argument here
Post by: GlennC on November 23, 2012, 02:43:58 PM
What would be wrong with going back to the original rules, 125, 250 and open class? The only displacement advantage would be in the open class and they're so powerful it doesn't matter, and the 125 class would be all 2 strokeno argument here
Anything else would be lame...
Post by: citabjockey on November 23, 2012, 02:58:45 PM
Coming from some one who grew up racing in the late 70's and early 80's and involved in amature and pro racing, The 125/250/open class structure is time tested and true. It works the best. Now my son has been racing for the last 7 years and I see the total MESS the AMA has made out of our sport.
Sad part is most of the racers today have no idea how good it used to be. I remember racing the winter am in the late 70's in the 125C class and we started a double gate with 80 bike's today you would be lucky to get 16 to 20 riders in the equivalent 250C class. We all know the reasons.
Also I kept my son on a 125 when he left his 85. It fit him perfect and did not have scary power he learned how to make it go fast and loves it. Three years ago we were one of the only 125,s out there in the 250C class.
Today most of the up and comming fast riders 13/14 year olds are all riding 125.s. Most of the tracks are now offering 125 two stroke only Class and are fielding 20 or more riders. Lots of new Yamahas and KTM's and even a few huskys and the huskys are kickin butt.
Most of the tracks now run AMA amature rules 250 T against 250 F and they have been pretty even. And also have let open two strokes run against 450 four strokes last year I saw a guy on a 1979 or 80 yz465 and get the hole shot. Any way I've rambled on enough but the 125/250/open works best in my opinion!
That is a very promising post! Thanks!
Post by: Super Trucker on November 23, 2012, 08:15:11 PM
What would be wrong with going back to the original rules, 125, 250 and open class? The only displacement advantage would be in the open class and they're so powerful it doesn't matter, and the 125 class would be all 2 strokeThat,s what the ama has to do. Or a new organization has to start it. My local track Denmark that I was a member at since 1990 closed in 2012. It had over 700 racers in the peak mx years, 95-01 with a natural amplytheater for the best spectature viewing around. Denmark is just out side of Green Bay, next to a interstate, great location. The track ran out of money, with only 200 racers, 02-2011. The track opened in 1969, I still can,t believe it,s gone.
Post by: chump6784 on November 24, 2012, 02:17:57 AM
We have equal cc here in oz and the scenerio you described is 100% correct. The only people running 2 strokes are privateers. Anyone with any sort of manufacturer backing is running a 4 stroke. The 4 strokes are still winning because the best riders are riding them but by having cc vs cc it gives the privateer an optionWhat would be wrong with going back to the original rules, 125, 250 and open class? The only displacement advantage would be in the open class and they're so powerful it doesn't matter, and the 125 class would be all 2 stroke
exactly, no reason they shouldn't do that, and screw the other mfg who dont have 125's or 250 2 strokes anymore, the guys who would run the 250 2 strokes would most likely be privateers and smaller teams anyway so it shouldn't matter. And with the rockstar yamaha team, since they have so many riders, i'm sure at least one of them would ride a 250 2 stroke.
In saying that i dont think anyone in the pro lites class was running a two stroke. The only place i can recall seeing two strokes raced at the aussie titles was in the under 19's class. There they cleaned up
Post by: TMKIWI on November 24, 2012, 04:46:50 AM
The only place i can recall seeing two strokes raced at the aussie titles was in the under 19's class. There they cleaned up
And he wasn't even an Aussie.
Post by: ford832 on November 24, 2012, 03:29:57 PM
Post by: VintageBlueSmoke on November 25, 2012, 09:43:36 AM
I hate to be the lone voice, but as much as it hurts me to say it - I disagree.
MX was in a decline long before the switch to 4$. Long gone were the days of 50k fans standing in the mud or dust. Gates were drying up faster than a desert wash. Anybody who was anybody was leaving the 500's behind and riding 250's.
There was a lot to share the blame; the economic model used to pay racers, reed induction and power valves, the explosion of other "extreme" sports, and the AMA/Honda Conspiracy, etc.
The point is, we shouldn't be living in the past (except us Vintage Riders) and thinking to the future. What makes sense to organize the sport into classes and divisions? The cylinder capacity obviously isn't correct.
In today's "greener" society, I propose an emissions based class system. Each moto would be limited to a fixed amount and type of fuel with a fixed carbon output. Faster classes would have more fuel and output. Truth is, it wouldn't change anything really. You'd still have the premier guys on 450 4$ or 300 2T and lap times would be unchanged, but the focus would be on something more relevant to the sheeple than the volume of yer jugs.
Post by: Super Trucker on November 25, 2012, 04:06:15 PM
Post by: citabjockey on November 25, 2012, 10:08:20 PM
Going back to 125, 250, 500 is not going to happen. Ever.
We just need that pile of money. Uh Huh.
Post by: riffraff on November 26, 2012, 05:10:53 AM
Oh yeah, from what I learned the AMA doesn't even own the AMA Motocross Series. In 2008, the AMA Pro Racing series was sold to the Daytona Motorsports Group.
Post by: Stusmoke on November 27, 2012, 02:56:42 AM
I hate to be the lone voice, but as much as it hurts me to say it - I disagree.
MX was in a decline long before the switch to 4$. Long gone were the days of 50k fans standing in the mud or dust. Gates were drying up faster than a desert wash. Anybody who was anybody was leaving the 500's behind and riding 250's.
There was a lot to share the blame; the economic model used to pay racers, reed induction and power valves, the explosion of other "extreme" sports, and the AMA/Honda Conspiracy, etc.
The point is, we shouldn't be living in the past (except us Vintage Riders) and thinking to the future. What makes sense to organize the sport into classes and divisions? The cylinder capacity obviously isn't correct.
In today's "greener" society, I propose an emissions based class system. Each moto would be limited to a fixed amount and type of fuel with a fixed carbon output. Faster classes would have more fuel and output. Truth is, it wouldn't change anything really. You'd still have the premier guys on 450 4$ or 300 2T and lap times would be unchanged, but the focus would be on something more relevant to the sheeple than the volume of yer jugs.
I can see where you're coming from with regards to the first bit about it being in a decline before the four stonks. Sometime in the 80's the American gas market peaked and prices went up I believe so that probably didn't help.
What would be wrong with going back to the original rules, 125, 250 and open class? The only displacement advantage would be in the open class and they're so powerful it doesn't matter, and the 125 class would be all 2 stroke
x 1000.
This. This this this and this again. People with the money can ride their fag strokes all they want so long as we are given a fair shot at beating them. The 250 two strokes might grab the holeshot, but as the moto wears on they will make mistakes and the 250Fs will catch up. I think equal displacement is the way to go because two strokes may be faster, but you need to be in the gym about 3 hours each day to pull them through a long moto on a rough track. Four strokes require less dedication but arent as fast. So it all levels out because two strokes extra power tires you out more and the four strokes can be ridden just as hard for longer. It ends up being even. Roughly.
With regards to there ever being a 500 class again, it seems unlikely. My worn out Yz250 is still crazy fast, all the power a man could want.
Post by: riffraff on November 27, 2012, 04:44:28 AM
With regards to there ever being a 500 class again, it seems unlikely. My worn out Yz250 is still crazy fast, all the power a man could want.
It wouldn't be a 500cc only class, it would be 251cc to 500cc for 2t and 4t. That's where you're 300cc to 380cc 2 strokes and the big bore 250's would fit in. It worked in the 70's
Post by: Uniflow on November 27, 2012, 11:00:05 PM
Post by: citabjockey on November 27, 2012, 11:13:23 PM
Free for all, no cylinder limit, no cc limit, no stroke advantage ( two or four ). This would bring the crowds back! Perhaps if some cap was needed just limit amount of fuel per race. NOT electric though!
Post by: _X_ on November 27, 2012, 11:24:26 PM
Post by: gpnewhouse7 on November 27, 2012, 11:39:30 PM
By full open I mean everything on two wheels that has handlebars: Rotary, Diesel, Electric, Petrol, Methanol, etc.
Post by: Stusmoke on November 28, 2012, 12:20:13 AM
Why not electric? If someone could build a Ray-O-Vac motocrosser then why not let it run if there are no rules other than two wheels?Free for all, no cylinder limit, no cc limit, no stroke advantage ( two or four ). This would bring the crowds back! Perhaps if some cap was needed just limit amount of fuel per race. NOT electric though!
I would rather eat my own scrotum than ride an electic dirtbike.
With regards to there ever being a 500 class again, it seems unlikely. My worn out Yz250 is still crazy fast, all the power a man could want.
It wouldn't be a 500cc only class, it would be 251cc to 500cc for 2t and 4t. That's where you're 300cc to 380cc 2 strokes and the big bore 250's would fit in. It worked in the 70's
Fair point there, and I would love to see an official YZ360 and I'd love to see KTM restart their 380 line.
Post by: msambuco on November 28, 2012, 12:31:36 AM
250
open
125 is support class and must be 16 to go 250. Minimum weight in 125 would drop to 180lbs. Schoolboy and college boy classes come back, strict age enforcement.
The 250 class would be just as Stusmoke described. The 125 would be all 2 stroke and young riders would learn good racing skills. Run a four stroke in this class, I dare ya. The open class would be dominated by the four strokes on average but any fast guy who could hang onto CR/KX 500 would be free to clean house. Open class should include 250's 4T and 2T as well. All the other size bikes would all have a class to ride in. Any age based class- run what ya brung. What say you?
Post by: Uniflow on November 28, 2012, 12:46:35 AM
Post by: Uniflow on November 28, 2012, 01:51:46 AM
Post by: GlennC on November 28, 2012, 04:17:02 AM
Post by: riffraff on November 28, 2012, 04:31:29 AM
125 is support class and must be 16 to go 250. Minimum weight in 125 would drop to 180lbs. Schoolboy and college boy classes come back, strict age enforcement.
I'm talking professional 125 races, no school boy, college boy or age limit. Open class should have a 500cc limit. It should be the same rules as the 70's.
Post by: citabjockey on November 28, 2012, 04:59:14 AM
But, for now anyway, nobody is forcing you to ride one. I really like my two strokes. A big part of the reason why is my ride time to wrench time ratio is nice and high. And what is considered a big expensive failure of the 2T engine is peanuts compared to the four strokes. And the engines are just fun fun fun. BUT an electric bike may someday have an even better ride/wrench ratio. Oh, and the flat power delivery I wrote about in other threads? An e-Bike would be king in that arena. As fun to ride as my 380? I kinda doubt it but I don't dismiss the possibility until one actually exists and I could try it. The Zero bikes have quite a ways to go to get there -- from what I have read about them anyway.
Now there is one more factor. If someone wants to build a track it can't be next to non-riding populace. They rear up and clobber such an idea at the govt level. If the bikes are quiet then those folks have a lot less ammunition and in these days of sucky economy a track can dangle tax revenue and some jobs under a politician's nose. There could be many closer places to ride/race then there are now.
So you don't like electric bikes. I get that. And I agree. To a point. If they get as good as our beloved two strokes are now in capability/reliability/cost and can open more places to ride (or at least help keep what places there are now open) then we would be fools to turn our backs on them.
Time will tell.
And no throwing rocks, ok? -- well, rocks that come from knobs are fine ;-)
Post by: TotalNZ on November 28, 2012, 05:07:40 AM
It came down as always to rider skill.
Post by: VintageBlueSmoke on November 28, 2012, 09:57:24 AM
Just have a full open class and riders are split into their skill category.
By full open I mean everything on two wheels that has handlebars: Rotary, Diesel, Electric, Petrol, Methanol, etc.
I could live with this kind of thing (since that is what I generally run) but what people who want the 500 class back don't realize is that a late '80's 250 had as much power as a '70's open class bike thanks to the power valve and other technologies. It was also easier to manage that power. Don't get me wrong, I have several open class bikes and love to ride them, but when chosing a weapon, the 250 is usually the best.
What I would suggest would be forcing the manufacturers to put up the purse and having an A main and B main with only the A main riders getting a check from the purse. Even 40th place would get points and paycheck. I don't know how to FORCE a manufacture to not pay their 2% riders gobs of money and investing it in the purses but I'm sure someone could come up with something. - Something like homologation being that you agree to pay $X amount to the purse for every motorcycle in the A main that is your brand.
Post by: _X_ on November 28, 2012, 09:20:55 PM
Post by: msambuco on November 28, 2012, 10:23:05 PM
Post by: _X_ on November 28, 2012, 11:17:23 PM
Post by: Stusmoke on November 29, 2012, 12:36:38 AM
It proves a couple of points: Growing up through the ranks of the two strokes, from 50sx through 125sx makes you a weapon of a rider and builds your skills like nothing else. It also says to me that it comes down to rider skill more than anything.
I spoke to one of the blokes wailing his YZ125 and asked him what he thought of the two stroke. He was about 20 I would guess and he said: "hahaha mate I rode four strokes for 3 years and watched my skills get progressively worse, I picked up this little screamer, rebuilt the engine for 500 bucks and started thrashing my mates again, I wouldn't dirty my ass on a four stroke again".
It was good to see.
Post by: _X_ on November 29, 2012, 12:47:07 AM
Post by: shanes on November 29, 2012, 02:51:29 AM
agreed stu.
+1 i love watching the kids on 65's and 85's whipping the big 4 stroke arses