Post by: Stusmoke on November 01, 2012, 11:51:16 PM
54.18 horsepower in a 350cc four stroke engine. Thats an extra four ponies over the 250sx and its not even a 4foopty. I reckon this article says a couple of things unintentionally:
1.) The whole double displacement theory has no basis in mechanical fact (which we already knew).
2.) The potential that is inside the 250sx engine! I'm really beginning to think that KTM is deliberately holding their smokers back. Think about it, they went with a PDS linkage in 2012 and somewhere along the line took 2 horsepower off the engine. 2 HP in exchange for linkage... yeah right what a great trade.
3.) How many of us would buy an sx350 two stroke? Count me in. A 450 two stroke would be insane, but a 350 would be much more usable I think. That is if the double displacement is even revoked.
Now It takes a lot for me to be impressed, but thats ALOT of horsepower from such a tiny engine. In fact, I think it actually beats the 2012 CRF450 which is just plain funny. But I could be wrong and probably am. They played their cards right in terms of how they released these 350s.
Post by: factoryX on November 02, 2012, 03:14:47 AM
Post by: TotalNZ on November 02, 2012, 04:46:13 AM
Post by: TMKIWI on November 02, 2012, 06:20:17 AM
2 HP in exchange for linkage... yeah right what a great trade.
The reason there stu is with the pds shock being offset the airboot was straighter and allowed for better breathing.
Post by: Stusmoke on November 02, 2012, 07:39:11 AM
2 HP in exchange for linkage... yeah right what a great trade.
The reason there stu is with the pds shock being offset the airboot was straighter and allowed for better breathing.
I was going to suggest that actually. And MXA said that was the probable cause too.
Why these constant HP comparisons? Max HP has very little to do with lap speed and how competitive or good a bike is.
So you're saying that a bike that is easier to ride and easier to go fast on should ALSO be given a monstrous horsepower advantage? What nonsense.
La-de-da the two strokes can underbrake the fours and can take corners faster, the amount of people that can actually take advantage of that ability at a local level is pretty well naught. Not to mention its quite a small time difference which gets taken away and then some on the straights.
At a pro level, they CAN take advantage of the two stroke traits. They're some of the fittest men (and women) in the world but the loss of 6 or so horsepower becomes even more disadvantageous to the two strokes because pros CAN use all the power of that 450.
Its ridiculous to say that horsepower has very little do with with lap times. I promise you I will turn a faster time on a 125 than an 85 and again faster on my 250 than my 125.
Post by: TotalNZ on November 02, 2012, 09:18:55 AM
Also if you followed that same train of thinking then wouldn't you be faster on a 300 than a 250 and then faster again on a 500, jesus you'd be unstoppable on one of those 700's
Post by: Stusmoke on November 02, 2012, 10:10:47 AM
Explain to me then why the lites bikes regularly post as fast or faster times than the 450's.
Also if you followed that same train of thinking then wouldn't you be faster on a 300 than a 250 and then faster again on a 500, jesus you'd be unstoppable on one of those 700's
See again, you're talking about amateur races. Most guys at the track don't have even half the skill necessary to put a 450 engine to use. Where they usually use about half the power of the 450, they can just wring the 250F out to get the same result but less weight and faster corner speed. 250Fs are also less intimidating to use because you know you haven't got as much motorcycle under you.
No, I wouldn't be any faster on any of those, 300 two strokes and 450fs is about where the advantage stops because anymore power just cannot be used no matter how good you are. If you went WOT down a straight on an mx track on a 500, you would have to brake much earlier thus loosing your advantage anyway.
Post by: scotty dog on November 02, 2012, 11:28:40 AM
Why these constant HP comparisons? Max HP has very little to do with lap speed and how competitive or good a bike is.I agree, In 98 I raced a CR 500 and CR 250 at different meetings but in the same class and had the exact same results. I had the best races against a guy on a 125!
Post by: Stusmoke on November 02, 2012, 11:45:41 AM
Post by: factoryX on November 02, 2012, 12:04:49 PM
Post by: Stusmoke on November 02, 2012, 10:22:24 PM
On the topic of the sx250, we KNOW the 150 can put out more power than that, and while 50 HP would have to be some kind of a record for bone stock 250 two strokes, is it all they can do?
I'd like to see Dogger buy a new 2013 250 and do... whatever he does to it. Take it in a dark room, draw weird pictures on it with blood and chant to it, whatever he does to get them how he does.
Post by: motoxr377 on November 03, 2012, 09:06:13 PM
Explain to me then why the lites bikes regularly post as fast or faster times than the 450's.
Also if you followed that same train of thinking then wouldn't you be faster on a 300 than a 250 and then faster again on a 500, jesus you'd be unstoppable on one of those 700's
See again, you're talking about amateur races. Most guys at the track don't have even half the skill necessary to put a 450 engine to use. Where they usually use about half the power of the 450, they can just wring the 250F out to get the same result but less weight and faster corner speed. 250Fs are also less intimidating to use because you know you haven't got as much motorcycle under you.
No, I wouldn't be any faster on any of those, 300 two strokes and 450fs is about where the advantage stops because anymore power just cannot be used no matter how good you are. If you went WOT down a straight on an mx track on a 500, you would have to brake much earlier thus loosing your advantage anyway.
He's not talking about Amatuer races. This happens at the Pro level.
Post by: TotalNZ on November 05, 2012, 04:41:12 AM
You come off as very abrasive. Banter!Thanks, yeah was talking about the pro's. For that matter though you do see the same thing in amateur racing too.Explain to me then why the lites bikes regularly post as fast or faster times than the 450's.
Also if you followed that same train of thinking then wouldn't you be faster on a 300 than a 250 and then faster again on a 500, jesus you'd be unstoppable on one of those 700's
See again, you're talking about amateur races. Most guys at the track don't have even half the skill necessary to put a 450 engine to use. Where they usually use about half the power of the 450, they can just wring the 250F out to get the same result but less weight and faster corner speed. 250Fs are also less intimidating to use because you know you haven't got as much motorcycle under you.
No, I wouldn't be any faster on any of those, 300 two strokes and 450fs is about where the advantage stops because anymore power just cannot be used no matter how good you are. If you went WOT down a straight on an mx track on a 500, you would have to brake much earlier thus loosing your advantage anyway.
He's not talking about Amatuer races. This happens at the Pro level.
The series i'm racing at the mo is open cc and the bikes power seems to have little to do with the results.
Post by: 2STROKEREVOLUTION on November 05, 2012, 05:10:35 AM
I'll wait for the comparison tests to see.
As far as the 250SX goes, I could imagine they can get 55hp out of them by now. If they really cared. But there is no class to push them to have to do that.
There is a point on a MX track where there is too much power. Of course, that depends on the rider and their skill. Then the advantages of weight. As said, many pro 250 riders match the 450 lap times. I would personally probably be quickest on a 200, that is my theory. I can wring a 125/144 out but would like more bottom end. While in the desert, I can use all 55+hp of my 380 at times.
Post by: Stusmoke on November 05, 2012, 06:39:56 AM
You come off as very abrasive. Banter!Thanks, yeah was talking about the pro's. For that matter though you do see the same thing in amateur racing too.Explain to me then why the lites bikes regularly post as fast or faster times than the 450's.
Also if you followed that same train of thinking then wouldn't you be faster on a 300 than a 250 and then faster again on a 500, jesus you'd be unstoppable on one of those 700's
See again, you're talking about amateur races. Most guys at the track don't have even half the skill necessary to put a 450 engine to use. Where they usually use about half the power of the 450, they can just wring the 250F out to get the same result but less weight and faster corner speed. 250Fs are also less intimidating to use because you know you haven't got as much motorcycle under you.
No, I wouldn't be any faster on any of those, 300 two strokes and 450fs is about where the advantage stops because anymore power just cannot be used no matter how good you are. If you went WOT down a straight on an mx track on a 500, you would have to brake much earlier thus loosing your advantage anyway.
He's not talking about Amatuer races. This happens at the Pro level.
The series i'm racing at the mo is open cc and the bikes power seems to have little to do with the results.
I suppose it really does depend on circumstances.
I am very skeptical at this moment about that horsepower result. Really, a 350 making more power than all the 450s? Seems fishy. And I test rode all the 2013 KTM MX bikes and the 350 in no way felt as powerful as the 450, even with the less weight.
I'll wait for the comparison tests to see.
As far as the 250SX goes, I could imagine they can get 55hp out of them by now. If they really cared. But there is no class to push them to have to do that.
There is a point on a MX track where there is too much power. Of course, that depends on the rider and their skill. Then the advantages of weight. As said, many pro 250 riders match the 450 lap times. I would personally probably be quickest on a 200, that is my theory. I can wring a 125/144 out but would like more bottom end. While in the desert, I can use all 55+hp of my 380 at times.
It doesn't make more power than ALL the 4foopties. Remember it needs to be wrung out to get that 53 horsepower. The KX450F makes about 55 at around 10,00 RPM. the 350 is getting pulled by the 450s all the way until the high revs when the 350 just keeps dishing out power.
Post by: 2STROKEREVOLUTION on November 05, 2012, 04:03:38 PM
I am very skeptical at this moment about that horsepower result. Really, a 350 making more power than all the 450s? Seems fishy. And I test rode all the 2013 KTM MX bikes and the 350 in no way felt as powerful as the 450, even with the less weight.
I'll wait for the comparison tests to see.
As far as the 250SX goes, I could imagine they can get 55hp out of them by now. If they really cared. But there is no class to push them to have to do that.
There is a point on a MX track where there is too much power. Of course, that depends on the rider and their skill. Then the advantages of weight. As said, many pro 250 riders match the 450 lap times. I would personally probably be quickest on a 200, that is my theory. I can wring a 125/144 out but would like more bottom end. While in the desert, I can use all 55+hp of my 380 at times.
It doesn't make more power than ALL the 4foopties. Remember it needs to be wrung out to get that 53 horsepower. The KX450F makes about 55 at around 10,00 RPM. the 350 is getting pulled by the 450s all the way until the high revs when the 350 just keeps dishing out power.
I still don't trust it until there are back to back dynos. After seeing 450s "jump" a few years ago from ~48hp to ~54hp with no changes to the engines, this could be the same. New dyno, re-calibrated, weather changes, etc.
For a 350 to match a 450 in peak power, it is being stressed to the limit or everything else is being held back.
Post by: TMKIWI on November 06, 2012, 04:06:32 AM
For a 350 to match a 450 in peak power, it is being stressed to the limit or everything else is being held back.
If the figures are correct, I would say a bit of both.
Easy enough to get more power out of a 450. Thing is why, would you need to. I am not counting pros.
Post by: Stusmoke on November 06, 2012, 05:51:18 AM
I am very skeptical at this moment about that horsepower result. Really, a 350 making more power than all the 450s? Seems fishy. And I test rode all the 2013 KTM MX bikes and the 350 in no way felt as powerful as the 450, even with the less weight.
I'll wait for the comparison tests to see.
As far as the 250SX goes, I could imagine they can get 55hp out of them by now. If they really cared. But there is no class to push them to have to do that.
There is a point on a MX track where there is too much power. Of course, that depends on the rider and their skill. Then the advantages of weight. As said, many pro 250 riders match the 450 lap times. I would personally probably be quickest on a 200, that is my theory. I can wring a 125/144 out but would like more bottom end. While in the desert, I can use all 55+hp of my 380 at times.
It doesn't make more power than ALL the 4foopties. Remember it needs to be wrung out to get that 53 horsepower. The KX450F makes about 55 at around 10,00 RPM. the 350 is getting pulled by the 450s all the way until the high revs when the 350 just keeps dishing out power.
I still don't trust it until there are back to back dynos. After seeing 450s "jump" a few years ago from ~48hp to ~54hp with no changes to the engines, this could be the same. New dyno, re-calibrated, weather changes, etc.
For a 350 to match a 450 in peak power, it is being stressed to the limit or everything else is being held back.
That was when EFI actually started working decently and a combination of improved engineering. At 48 horsepower, there really is no reason to go with a 450 over a 250smoker. I'd say the manufacturers realized this and put a little more effort into it.
Post by: 2STROKEREVOLUTION on November 06, 2012, 11:49:01 PM
I am very skeptical at this moment about that horsepower result. Really, a 350 making more power than all the 450s? Seems fishy. And I test rode all the 2013 KTM MX bikes and the 350 in no way felt as powerful as the 450, even with the less weight.
I'll wait for the comparison tests to see.
As far as the 250SX goes, I could imagine they can get 55hp out of them by now. If they really cared. But there is no class to push them to have to do that.
There is a point on a MX track where there is too much power. Of course, that depends on the rider and their skill. Then the advantages of weight. As said, many pro 250 riders match the 450 lap times. I would personally probably be quickest on a 200, that is my theory. I can wring a 125/144 out but would like more bottom end. While in the desert, I can use all 55+hp of my 380 at times.
It doesn't make more power than ALL the 4foopties. Remember it needs to be wrung out to get that 53 horsepower. The KX450F makes about 55 at around 10,00 RPM. the 350 is getting pulled by the 450s all the way until the high revs when the 350 just keeps dishing out power.
I still don't trust it until there are back to back dynos. After seeing 450s "jump" a few years ago from ~48hp to ~54hp with no changes to the engines, this could be the same. New dyno, re-calibrated, weather changes, etc.
For a 350 to match a 450 in peak power, it is being stressed to the limit or everything else is being held back.
That was when EFI actually started working decently and a combination of improved engineering. At 48 horsepower, there really is no reason to go with a 450 over a 250smoker. I'd say the manufacturers realized this and put a little more effort into it.
As I said, zero changes. They said so and never mentioned all the bikes feeling more powerful. It was a change in some external factor.
The benefit of a 4-stroke, while it may not make more top end power, is the low end power. That is why I would always pick a 300 smoker. 250 handling but broader power.
Here is the first dyno I have seen of the bikes. Seems the 350 does make comparable power.
Post by: riffraff on November 07, 2012, 05:01:31 AM
Post by: Stusmoke on November 07, 2012, 08:39:26 AM
In terms of pure racing potential I can definitely understand why people would want this machine over the 450s. But the COSTS!!!!! 11,000 is getting up there.
Post by: VintageBlueSmoke on November 07, 2012, 09:32:35 AM
Turns out that I wasn't considering the changes in the track between motos. Motos run groomer, 250, 450, 250, 450...all weekend with other support classes in between. Until this year, the track was ALWAYS more deteriated for the 450 than the 250 thus allowing the 250 to turn similar lap times to the 450. This year, you'll notice a bigger disparity between the 250 and 450 on days the the 250 follows the 450.
And in SX, there is no advantage to the 450 on most tracks as rhythm important than HP. Slow is Fast.
Post by: Stusmoke on November 07, 2012, 10:10:48 AM
Compareing lap times with the PRO 450/250F's is really apples and oranges. I was on thae side that said the 250F was faster because guys like Dungey were turning equal lap times but then I found that misleading.
Turns out that I wasn't considering the changes in the track between motos. Motos run groomer, 250, 450, 250, 450...all weekend with other support classes in between. Until this year, the track was ALWAYS more deteriated for the 450 than the 250 thus allowing the 250 to turn similar lap times to the 450. This year, you'll notice a bigger disparity between the 250 and 450 on days the the 250 follows the 450.
And in SX, there is no advantage to the 450 on most tracks as rhythm important than HP. Slow is Fast.
I was actually going to mention SX. In the super tight sx tracks of today, displacement really doesn't mean squat. All the bikes competing are just as capable of taking the same rhythms as each other. The power of the 450 becomes useless.