Two Stroke Motocross
Two Stroke Motocross Forum => General Two Stroke Talk => Topic started by: TMKIWI on April 09, 2010, 06:05:17 PM
-
Hi everyone. Great site with lots of like minded people sharing their thoughts on smokers.
Whats your favorite 3 MODERN Bikes ?
I would like to try something novel in this post. I will post a chocolate fish out to every reply until someone mentions either Maico , 1983 , 490 or 440. I will then chew off my right wrist so i can't type or ride anymore.
They may have been great bikes in their day but i was still learning to ride a CR80 and watching M*A*S*H on TV.
Here are my favorites.
1: 2007 TM300. Steel frame and Ohlins. Great combination. Complete with adjustable power valve.
2: 06-08 YZ250. Just a great allrounder.
3: 06-08 RM250. Great handling. Just sold mine for TM.
DSC01361.jpg
-
Can I say that famous German dirtbike built the year before 1984? Come on now,you're talking about a lifetime addiction here!
-
Yippee... new bikes!! I love it!
Well first on my list is;
(http://i993.photobucket.com/albums/af58/Two_Stroke_Motocross/IMG_4327.jpg)
Which is the 2010 TM125 MX - this is the closest thing to a works bike that you can buy for a resonable amount of money.
Next is the 2009-2010 YZ250 - for obvious reasons!
(http://projecttwo50.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/1MFP2769.jpg)
Then the 2010 KTM150 SX... nice machine and capable of beating the 250F's... for those areas of the world where the rules don't allow 250 vs. 250.
(http://twostrokemotocross.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/sean_ktm150_motocross_com.jpg)
-
(http://www.maicowerk.com/Images/Photos/3/DSC04869.jpg)
(http://www.maicowerk.com/Images/Photos/3/bike14.jpg)
(http://www.maicowerk.com/Images/Photos/2/july4_8.jpg)
(http://www.maicowerk.com/Images/Photos/1/cr500_15.jpg)
(http://www.maicowerk.com/Images/Photos/1/cr500_12.jpg)
(http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/2263/uvs100410001.png)
(http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/7596/uvs100410002.png)
These are my bikes
-
Well, that's not really all that easy for me to do, to pick a "modern" 2stroke favorite. Gonna have to disappoint you. Problem is, the bikes I like are open class, 500 or better, and they must be a 2stroke. 250s are fun, but just toys. The areas I used to ride had lots of wide open fire roads and a 250 or 300 is too slow. Gear it up high and then it hurts acceleration too much, and you'll get eaten by big thumpers through the gears. No, I need a 2stoke that I can up-gear enough to do a 100 or slightly better, that will still out accelerate a new KTM 520, or any 450 motocross thumper, through the gears for the tighter stuff. One that will be able to conquer very large sand dune type hills and yet not get left behind on the fire roads through the gears, or due to having a low top speed. In my book, no 250 or 300 2stoke made, can do that. If I'm wrong, please let me know, but give evidence. Best I can do with your parameters here, and the type of riding I like, is to say a KX500AF, but that's still an older motor. It will do the trick though because the KX has enough power to do just that. Stock though, it only does about 86 mph though, and even the new 450 thumpers can top that.
Here's an unfortunate video proving that assertion, with a side by side comparison between a fairly new Honda CRF450 and KX500, top speed and acceleration.
kx500 vs crf450 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9b6Jwpdal-I#)
This was very disappointing, Sure, the KX out accelerates the Honda thumper, and would have done so much worse on pavement, but as soon as it runs out of top speed, the Honda thumper comes cruising past it still accelerating. The idiot on the KX needs to up the gearing a bit and he'd easily run off and leave the thumper, not only accelerating through the gears, but top speed as well. Put them both on pavement and the acceleration difference would be shocking due to equal traction for both machines. Upgear the CRF450 too, a 4stroke lover might suggest? Be my guest, you play that game the KX again wins because it has more HP and torque and will be able to pull taller gears easier than the thumper. So show me a modern 300 KTM, TM, Gas Gas, any 250 or otherwise, that would have beaten this CRF450 thumper here in BOTH acceleration "AND" top speed, (or could be geared to do so) and I will show you a new model I like. The best I can do is a CR500AF or KX500AF and the KX has more power than the CR, so it wins in my book. Nevertheless, 2004 was the last year they made the KX500 so I doubt it would qualify as a new model even if the frame is new. Take an old 1983 Maico Sand Spider, in like-new condition and put it in that test against that 450, or any other, and it would run off and leave it, acceleration AND top speed.
Well, what about the new Maicos? Good question, what about them? Nobody seems able to test them, and that's extremely frustrating to me. I read, a few years ago, a test online between a modern KTM 525SX against an old 1981 Maico 490. That was disappointing too. The KTM out accelerated it. Not by much, but it did beat it. (The KX500 in the early '00s, was tested by Dirtbike magazine, against both the KTM 525 and XR650 and easily beat them both through the gears in drag races). Granted, they said the Maico motor was a bit worn and speculated that were it fresh it might be able to barely beat the KTM thumper through the gears, but that's too close for me. If the new Maicos cannot do far better than that, I'm not interested! Now I'm certain the 1983 Sand Spider, given good traction, would have wasted the KTM, 525SX in both acceleration and top speed although it might not have done as well on a motocross track. So again, what about the New Maicos? Are they faster and more powerful than the old 1981 490? Do they have more power than the KX500 or are they mild-mannered to suit riders used to thumper type power? There was supposed to be a 2004 Maico 500 Long Term Test Report â?? Part 3 on this site that I waited, and waited, and waited for, which might have given me a clue as to the capabilities of the newer ones. It never materialized, however, and I am very disappointed in that. What happened???????
You'd think the 680 Maico would fit the bill, but I'm told that motor is really rather mild-mannered, and not at all the monster one would expect, and that the 620 was the best way to go for sheer power, but again, no tests. If Maico is more interested in getting around a track smoothly, their bikes might not be suited for what I'm talking about. I want to know how it stacks up against a KX500, and not around a track, but rather open desert, period!
Let me explain why I feel this way. Back in the mid '80s, I bought an '82 Yamaha IT465 enduro. Great motor, gobs of low end that rivaled my brother's '76 Yamaha TT500 thumper, but with a lot more power mid and top. I was pretty pleased with the machine although it didn't handle well on a track, it did very well in the deserts of West Texas and Southern New Mexico. Totally stable at top speed, and good acceleration to boot, so I was happy. Well, that is, until my buddy got him a 1984 Honda CR500. That was the last year the CRs were air-cooled. First thing my friend did was up-gear the CR for desert. After he did, near as we could tell it did around 100 mph or a bit better, top speed. My friend weighed about 240, and I weighed about 160. The CR had considerably more top end ponies than the IT, but where traction was scarce, I could stay with him through the gears until I ran out of top speed. On pavement, or good traction areas, forget it, Then, he out-accelerated me through the gears with ease despite the taller gearing and his greater weight. Up-gearing the IT, I figured, would be the answer, but it wasn't, due to the fact that it simply didn't have the power that the big CR had. Sure, it could pull the taller gearing, but the acceleration really suffered with gearing that high, especially from third to fourth, and fourth to 5th. I put the gearing back stock, wishing every time I rode with my friend, that I had a sixth, even seventh gear. I hated that, and never forgot that lesson and my frustrations! A few years later, another friend of mine bought an old '85 CR500 Husky 2stroke. That bike had six gears and was really fast top speed as well as through the gears. Problem was. it rarely ran properly. When it did, it was something else though! Wasn't much of a motocrosser, but who cares! Motocross is just putting around compared to desert riding anyhow, and that bike could climb the sand hills like you wouldn't believe. Didn't have to up-gear it, didn't need to
Oh well, I digress here, back to the question of new Maicos. Sure, I'd probably pick their 500 or 620, if i could see a test and proof that either could beat a KX500 in conditions I specified above. What I want to know about them though, even if they get tested, will not likely be in the test. I don't care squat how good they go around a track, against new 4stroke 450s or anything else. I want to see how they do on long straights against known quantities like a CR or KX 500. When I see that one of them can beat the KX 500 through the gears, and is able to be upgeared without losing a lot, then it will be my favorite. But it has to beat any (stock motored) off-road thumper one might encounter in accleration, top speed and climbing really tough sand or loose hills where high hp is necessary, but skill is not. Sheesh, who motocrosses 500s anyhow? Their forte should be the big hills and wide open spaces. So having ranted and rambled about all of that, my favorite "modern" bike, as new as I can make it, is a 2004 KX500 motor in a modern frame. At least until it's proven in a side by side test that any of the new Maicos can beat it, through the gears, and top speed. Last thing I'd want to happen would be to be out riding my nice big twostroke, and get beaten in a drag by a thumper. Sure, if it were a traction issue I could live with it, and would demand a rematch on pavement. But I'd not want any bike where there might be a question mark there. Ah, if only KTM would bring back the old 550, but build it like they do their 250SX motor. Now that, my friends, would be a real machine! All of the old 2stroke 500 motors were underbuilt and mildly tuned, anyhow. Build them like they do the modern 250 2strokes and youd see some real power! Even so, I'd be very happy if KTM would just produce the old 1995 2stroke 550 in a modern frame. Oh, and what I said earlier, regarding Dirtbike dragracing the KX 500 against the KTM 525 and Honda XR 650 thumpers, well, here's a Youtube vid with the KX500 against the Honda XR650. Notice, that the KX rider doesn't even start until over a second after the Honda XR 650 rider takes off. He still catches and passes him. Had it been dirt, he'd not have caught him due to 4 bangers getting better traction, but this is pavement where traction isn't an issue. I'm sure the KX isn't stock geared either or he'd never have caught up here.
kx500 simard vs xr650 tilouis 2009 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Twy8jkq0o8Q#)
-
Hello Tuquine... welcome to the board... that is one long post.
One thing I want to point out to you along with some of the other folks is to read the name at the top of this page... it does say motocross, right??
I understand that there are fans that like other stuff, like trail riding, desert racing, Supermoto and all the other disciplines of motorcycling, but this site is dedicated to two-stroke motocross. Just wanted to point that out. ;D ;D
All that said, I can appreciate your concerns for riding at top speeds that a 250 or 300 two-stroke not having the same top speed as the open class four-stroke... it's kind of obvious! It's bigger!!! If an equal displacement two-stroke is geared properly, no four-stroke will touch it, on or off road. The only reason this comparison exists at all is because of rules in motocross trickled down to every one from trail riders to desert racers. It's not a fair comparison and yet most believe it is. The power of marketing.
Here is a video of a Maico 700 vs. a 450F...
Maico 700 first ride- Tachyon xc cam (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucknxyRcRAw#)
It speaks for itself!
On to some of your other questions... the new Maicos are still being sorted out for import to the USA. An official Press Release has not been sent out yet, because there are legal issues that must be taken care of before you can import machines to the states. From my understanding they are very close to having this done.
Once the machines are here, we at this site will be testing them as mentioned in another thread. Personally I don't like the idea of having a magazine test the bike. Why? The magazines have a bias, most folks that work for magazines are given new bikes every year by big manufacturers, why would they give a good review on an off-brand machine?
Quick story, I have spoken to several off-brand distributors that have been at the tests the magazines have done. The riders will talk about how much they like the machine, but when the article comes out it's a different story. Even after everyone was clamoring to ride the bike!! It's hard to publish in your magazine that a off-brand machine is better than the bikes from the manufacturers that help you on a weekly basis.
Besides, I'd rather hear what regular racers/riders have to say, folks that are not associated with any manufacturer, but hey that's just me!
As for part 3 of the long term Maico test, the author of that article was a member of the site and we mutually decided to part ways. He still has been planning to finish the article and send it to the site... when he does it will be published. I'm waiting too!
Since you have a love for top speed two-strokes, check out this article,
http://twostrokemotocross.com/2009/06/worlds-fastest-mx-bike-kawasaki-kx500/ (http://twostrokemotocross.com/2009/06/worlds-fastest-mx-bike-kawasaki-kx500/)
-
Well, John, I guess I should apologize. Didn't mean to come off disrespecting this site, nor the sport of motocross. I love this site and check it daily!!! I really appreciate what you're doing and the sport needs it. I was letting my personal frustrations take over a bit. The fact is, pound for pound, I think the new KTM 250SX is one of the finest machines made, motorwise anyhow. The most powerful stock 250 motor ever made, to my knowledge, and well above all the others. I also think the new 2stroke YZ 250s are just fantastic machines and maybe better overall than the KTM though a bit down on HP. Fact is, 250 motors are far better built than the old 500 motors. Yet, they are still very reliable, and not so stressed out that they break al the time. For several years I've wished they'd make a 500 2stroke motor like the 2stroke MX 250s for off-road use. Anyhow, I don't despise smaller bikes at all. The KTM 300 is probably the best all-around machine ever made. I've just been frustrated for a long time because they're just not building bikes like I preferred to ride any more. First they quit racing open-class in America, then a few years later, they quit building open-class 2stroke machines. They hadn't been improving the engines on them for about a decade before they quit making them anyhow, unlike the 125s and 250s. The tracks they designed in the US, favored smaller displacement bikes often, as well, just as many of them today are designed to favor thumpers. I'd want a track for open classers with longer straights, smaller bumps, at least one nasty uphill that say a 125 would be lucky to climb if at all. Something with long enough straights to where the 2strokes could hook up and catch and pass the thumpers since thumpers usually get so much better traction at the start. Either that or I'd have much wider rear tires with big wide center knobs to help alleviate the problem. Oh well, one can dream, can he not?
I know this is a motocross site and perhaps this was the wrong place to post. Thing is, although I've owned enduros before, like the IT, most of us wanted MX bikes even if they never saw a track, simply because the motors had more power and better performance. At the time I wanted the '85 CR500 but couldn't quite swing it financially, so I got the '82 IT465. This was especially true in the '70s, enduros were mostly junk. They have gotten much better, but in general, are less powerful, being better suited for eastern forests than western deserts. Take the KTM 150SX and the KTM 200 enduro. The 150 is going to be more powerful even though smaller. Just an example. Anyhow, when I think of a motocrosser, I think of an off-road machine, just naturally. I do wish they built more bikes specifically for the wide open deserts of the west, but the buyers are forced to pick either a motocrosser or enduro, and set it up from there. Naturally, we would hope that such bikes will be capable of being set up to do such things without costing an arm and a leg. In the past, a morocross bike usually fits that bill better than any other, due to power. I shouldn't have dissed the MXers here though and I'm sorry. Truth is, I never had the skill to ride well that way even had I wanted. One of my brothers had a 1979 RM250 with the old Fox air shocks on it and of course, he'd blow me away on my IT 465 around the local track at the time. By the time I would have passed him on a straight, it was time to turn and neither me or my bike cared for that very much, and I ate a lot of dirt, lol. Funny thing, my other brother had an RM400, 1978. So did my cousin. My brother got frustrated with it on that track and traded it in for either a .'79 or '80 Kawasaki KX 125. I thought he was totally bonkers for doing that. In it's day, the '78 RM 400 was a nice machine and really nice off-road. Around that track though, he was much faster on the 125 than my cousin was on his RM 400. Even swapping bikes the 125 always won. Simply too tight of a track to take advantage of the bigger bike's power.
That Maico vid you put up was great, I'd sure like to see more of that machine, what a beauty! I didn't get the impression he was really ringing it out much, perhaps he was breaking it in. Even so, made me drool a bit. I'm pretty sure the new Maicos from the 500 up would out-pull a CR or KX 500, just wish somebody would test that and put them on dynos. I know, you can't trust today's magazines, but I'd believe it even if the Maico folks themselves did the test. My gut tells me that the new Maico open classers are probably the best open bikes ever built, power wise, just wish I could see it proven. I had indeed seen the world's fastest bike article, wasn't surprised that it would be the venerable KX. (Let's see any 450 thumper try that, no way!) Think about how cool it would be though, if somebody tried that same setup on the big new Maicos! That, I'd love to see. We never rode that fast, nor wanted to gear the bikes anywhere near that high, but I figured a 100 - 110 mph tops was nice to have available when you needed it. So-Cal riders probably understand this well. Better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it, in the desert anyhow. Wish they'd build 500 2strokes with 6 or 7 speeds. I believe Husqvarna put out a 7 speed desert bike in the '60s, correct me if I'm wrong. Up-gearing is always a compromise, but, oh well, dreaming again I guess, until desert racing gets a lot more popular and lucrative than it currently is. For now, one has got to use a motocrosser and up-gear.
Below is a picture of one of the areas I used to ride before I was disabled. It's a volcanic crater in Donna Ana county New Mexico called Kilbourne Hole, near Mt. Riley and the East Potrillo range, not too far from El Paso, Texas. If you look close you can see some of the roads around it which stretch out fairly straight for miles. Plenty of room to get a bit bored with 85 mph. Speaking of that, I'm sure I've bored you folks long enough. I love your site here John, it's sorely needed. If I offended anyone in my previous post, I'm sorry, we're all on the same side! May 2strokes once again rule enduros, moto and supercross, as well as in the desert!! Hats off to all who choose to ride a 2stroke of any displacement over a thumper, regardless of riding preference.
(http://i983.photobucket.com/albums/ae311/Twostroke17/800px-Kilbourn_hole_aerial_1.jpg)
-
You should check out my site Maicowerk (http://www.maicowerk.com). I have magazine tests on the new Maicos (not 2010, but mid-2000s), but I believe them to be quite bias.
You may be interested in this unbais Maico on Maico test, I have several of them the late Randall Owens did. This pits the newer Maicos (10 yrs ago) against the older Maicos:
1999 Test (http://www.maicowerk.com/Maico/MaicoBrothers/1999)
-
Nice picks John. I resently sold a 02 KTM 200. Man that thing could corner and it had a surprising amount of power.(I rebuilt the motor to factory specs).I would love to try a new 150Sx sounds like a fun bike.
I dont race (Too old) but love the sport.
The problem with the old open class bikes Turquine is that they would have problems keeping up with the new smaller bikes around tighter tracks.
For desert racing that you like the big bores are the way to go but not so good on a track.
My post was meant for motox bikes. I know the TM300 is not classified as a motox bike but it is my new toy and if the rules were changed to 250cc+ 2 or 4 stroke class it would make a competitive bike.
-
A couple of years ago a friend of mine was part of a team that raced down in Baja and they won the 60+ category.Their times would have placed them in the top three in the 40+ category.At the time my friend was 67.
-
1. 2008 KTM144SX; absolute blast
2. 2001 RM125; mates bike, had the best suspension (re valved) of any bike I've ridden. If Suzuki had brought out a 144 I would be riding one of them
3. One of my RM250's, I'd say 2001 model, flogged that bike and it never let me down
-
2003, rm 125 with pro circuit pipe and silencer
-
Thanks, Opferman, for posting the 1999 Maico test. Very informative and also reminded me of why I like the '83 Sand Spider so much as well. Also enjoyed going through some of your web site, some very interesting material there. TM, I do agree with you on the older 500s and MX tracks as they are currently designed, one is indeed better off on a smaller displacement 2stroke. I'd design MX tracks a bit differently, however, as I mentioned in my previous post. Unfortunately, for some odd reason, the AMA has not consulted me on designing MX tracks, :)
-
Hi Turquine. I dont think the AMA has consulted with anyone who has an interest with racing!!!
I do like the new KX500AF and would love a ride but the riding i do it would be too much a handfull.
I find the 300 about right.
With my RM250 I found I was getting left on long hill climbs but with the 300 I havn't had a 450 pass me yet.
-
Nice picks John. I resently sold a 02 KTM 200. Man that thing could corner and it had a surprising amount of power.(I rebuilt the motor to factory specs).I would love to try a new 150Sx sounds like a fun bike.
I dont race (Too old) but love the sport.
The problem with the old open class bikes Turquine is that they would have problems keeping up with the new smaller bikes around tighter tracks.
For desert racing that you like the big bores are the way to go but not so good on a track.
My post was meant for motox bikes. I know the TM300 is not classified as a motox bike but it is my new toy and if the rules were changed to 250cc+ 2 or 4 stroke class it would make a competitive bike.
I have a TM300MX definately a MX bike
-
Total , yes the 300 is a MX bike but was just meaning there is no class for it except the vet class.
By the way mine is an EN but has all the enduro bits removed.
Apart from flywheel weight and gearing it's the same bike right ?
-
I believe Husqvarna put out a 7 speed desert bike in the '60s, correct me if I'm wrong.
Sorry I'm a little late on this, but what you're looking for is the 8-speed Husky. I believe Malcolm had one in On Any Sunday, maybe Steve McQueen's was an eight, too. And I have to say, I love having lots of gears. I've put in a lot of desert miles on my Husky and spent a little time on 5-speed Maicos, and it really feels lacking for that 6th. For me, the ideal thing would be some fairly wide ratios, because as I really noticed last weekend, my 250CR has some DAMN close gears, but 1st is already really high and makes take-off and slow hills tough to deal with. If I could have a much lower first and slightly higher sixth, I'd be loving it. Shifting four times in three seconds is a little ridiculous, anyway.
That reminds me, I'm hoping to write up a Ride Report for every trip this year, so hopefully the first will be incoming later today.
-
Total , yes the 300 is a MX bike but was just meaning there is no class for it except the vet class.
By the way mine is an EN but has all the enduro bits removed.
Apart from flywheel weight and gearing it's the same bike right ?
Yeah i race in open class against the 450's. Yep pretty much same as your EN apart from different spring rates and final drive ratios and mine doesn't have a lighting coil.
-
my 250CR has some DAMN close gears
Just so you know.... CR = Close Ratio.... that bike is built for motocross... as I recall they had another machine with wider gear spacing for desert/off-road..
-
Modern two strokes!
I love the KTM 250sx such a light and agile bike with a great engine. I had one and sold it. Now I just want to buy one again. The good thing is that KTM had a 300sx kit so you can transform (change the barrel, piston and little else) your bike easily into and open class motocrosser ready to eat 450s.
(http://www.prorider.com.au/images/250_SX_2010.jpg)
I also think the 150sx is a great bike and the TM 125 is awesome.
-
My favorite modern quarter liters in order:
2009 Service Honda CR250AF
2006-present Yamaha YZ250
2004 Suzuki RM250
dogger
-
(http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u173/mx_racer934/P9090402.jpg)
I would have to say the KTM 250sx, that's why I bought one.
And for some reason I always loved 96-98 RMs
(http://i384.photobucket.com/albums/oo290/hendo_7/100_0892.jpg)
-
my 250CR has some DAMN close gears
Just so you know.... CR = Close Ratio.... that bike is built for motocross... as I recall they had another machine with wider gear spacing for desert/off-road..
I know, but they took CR to a pretty ridiculous level with that thing. And I must say, it would be excellent for motocross. Unless you slow down below the powerband in 1st, that bike will be able to stay on the pipe 100% of the time up to any speed you care to reach. Personally, I prefer OR gearing, which has the wide first-three gears and the close last-three, which means a nice low first and no excessive shifting out of corners. But, this is supposed to be about modern bikes so I'll shut up. I think you guys already know my favorites anyway, and they all start with M.
-
the 150SX is my favourite bike. :D