Two Stroke Motocross
Two Stroke Motocross Forum => General Two Stroke Talk => Topic started by: kim wedding on October 28, 2012, 11:38:09 PM
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I was reading about tci performance build of a 250 yamaha on this site and about a early 70's husquvarna 250 rode by malcolm smith at a indian motorcycle site.The husky was a 8 speed and they said it would do 100 mph. Now my comment is looking at the number of honda cr125's still racing it seem's safe to say people want to ride these bike's, flaws and all,but what would it take for a company to build a killer motor with a six speed transmission that fit in a 2007 frame or will a earlier honda motor fit in that frame such as 1996 motor. I see where others have put a 125 in a 250crf frame. Don't like this option frame dwarf's motor. How many other rider's think the 1993 steel frame is best or 2007 aluminum frame is best? Would love to see a test of the 2 frame's side by side both 125 and 250 honda cr's. I know what your thinking a old bike against a newer one. No i want the bike's to be new, motors, suspension even the plastic the same only difference is frame material. I know someone's gonna say they can't be identical perimeter frame on one and not the other. Gas tank's different too. Many other difference's also. Still would love to see it. How many riders think a 6 speed transmission is better than a 5 speed for a 125? How about for a 250 honda 2 stroke mx'er. Know of anyone ever doing this to a honda cr250. How about a modern mx'er 8 speed. Now the reason i asked the question's i asked and made the comment's i made, are tci performance is stepping outside the box to try and improve a excellent machine.A very noble cause,but what technology out there has been over looked or forgot about. What technology is really a improvement and how much of an improvement. Me personally i would like a 1993 framed cr125 with the best component's on it and 2007 front and rear fenders sound's killer to me! How about you... KIM
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Yeah there,s guys racing cr125,s because 02-07 handle great and last forever. The 2000-01 is pretty good to. The current pro,s and retired did a survey on what is the best handling bike ever. The cr125 won easily, years from now the later cr,s will still have the best chassis. I would take a 87 over a 93 chassis, 90-97 had great motors for back then, bad handling. It looks like my 06 motor would bolt up, in my 04. A member on here installed a 90,s engine in his alum. frame, don,t remeber the year. A 05-7 hp 34.9 96 hp 29.8, why would ya want 5 hp less, 96 trans. parts might be discontinued, along with cylinder,head,pv parts.
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Whats the purpose or your aim of spending time and money on this?
are you trying to shave tenths of a second off your already stellar lap times?
or are you an amature racer who's just looking for a fun project and a trick bike?
depending on your answer there are two distinct solutions.
IMO I dont think you could get much better than a late model TM125 (or a KTM or Jap bike) with a set of Alpina carbon matrix rims mated to carbon matrix hubs, combine that with carbon replica bodywork, trick forks and a trick shock you should have the fastest bike out there without doing much work to the engine or the frame with the exception of a custom pipe and a compression increase for expensive race gas.
the wheels are around 1600 USD which is pretty good value for money if you ask me.
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If I'm not mistaken the early 8 speed Huskies were 4 X 2s, in other words, 4 speeds with a Hi Low selector box. I once raced a 7 speed Sachs 250 and, to this day, miss the quality and purposefulness of that motorcycle. Zundapps once had 10 speed 50cc ISDT racers. For motocross a 6 speed box I would think would be fine.
If I were to build a 125 special I would do everything humanly possible to direct inject the motorcycle, maybe a hybrid system ala Ossa. DI would reduce scavenging losses and really broaden the powerband of that little 125. Add to that the inherent weight advantage of a 125 and it would be time to kick some 250f butt. 
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Thank's for answering back rider's. Love the rim's Jeram! I rode a 1987 honda cr125 Super trucker, it was killer so was the 1989 cr125 but the 1993 cr125 aside from a harsh fork was a monster handling bike and the motor ripped in my opinion, my 2007 cr125 handle's great, motor and 5 speed trannsmission suck's. Funny how some motor's just stand out against other motor's even if their less powerful than a motor of today. Wish some company would build a killer motor and 6 speed transmission for my 07 cr125. I know of some guy's wishing the same thing for their honda cr250's. Seem's like a no brainer to me. Guy's with 04 thru 07 cr's would kill for a kick butt motor and transmission and won't the same motor fit in all those year of frame's.125 motor in a 125 frame, 250 motor in 250 frame. So here's hopeing for some one to start building red rocket's or if you prefer green or yellow one's or even some one off stuff!!! KIM
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The 1st ride on my 06, everything stock but suspension stiffer springs. My 1st ride at a friday night track, for a sunday open ride. I passed a rm450 who got a 2nd at the tripplecross race in 30a, I passed him 8 or 9 times in the corners. The 06 has a strong motor, you just have to shift alot to keep it in the strong part of the mid. I have stock gearing, will drop the gearing 1 tooth because the motor is strong enough and I,m 170 or so in my birthdaysuit. The 5 speed has thicker gears than a 6 sd, the 5 speed is a stronger trans. There,s post on here of the converstions. I,ll stick with the stronger trans. Get a pipe, then porting, bore carb,etc the bike will just keep getting better. I,ll put my 06 cr125 with a stock cylinder, pipe and rad valve against any 125 made.
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Your post is really comparing apples to oranges. First, the 8 speed Husky was never very popular. The 400 Cross was (properly geared) capable of carrying desert riders of the day (Malcolm, Morris, JN etc) across the flats in excess of 100 mph. Although on a (semi-modern) 125 you have about the same HP as that old Husky, you can only gear out so far before it just doesn't have the torque to carry it any further.
One thing to consider is "why did they go to aluminum frames anyway?" It wasn't to save weight. It was because aluminum frames are stiffer and thus isolates movement to the suspension. This helps the engineers in better designing suspensions and helps techs and riders in isolating movement to better set up the bike for competition. The drawback is that it causes more vibration to transfer to the rider and they lose some "feel" (if I recall, a certin top level rider hated it and changed from Honda to Suzuki because of it.)
When you get into the steel vs aluminum argument, you have to look at the developement of the SYSTEMS. Post-1993 probably was the best Honda's because they were at the end of the developement cycle. They had a little over 10 years to develope a steel frame to work with existing suspension technologies. Now, aluminum frames have had about that same amount of time and effort. Suspension technologies have also progressed even further making the best aluminum frame/modern suspension light years ahead of a steel frame/modern suspension (except for those that continued with steel developement i.e. KTM).
Personally, I think that you cannot do better than the current crop of 125's by mixing and matching parts from previous eras. You will spend a lot more money developing one than if you just purchase new. Depending on your location, your basic choices are Yamaha, KTM, TM, or Husqvarna. If you are an enduro rider, or would like to modify an enduro bike for MX and want electric start, you can add Husaberg. Some places can get the Suzuki, not the US though. Any of these bikes would be preferrable to cobbling one up yourself.
What your are proposing is admirable, and fun...but it will not be better.
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Kim have you ever thought that rather than messing with putting a steel frame on your cr or putting an older cr engine in it that a much better bike would be a your current cr frame with a KTM motor and yz sss suspension? To me that sounds like a dream bike due to how that takes the legendary handling of the cr along with the monster powerhouse of the KTM and the brilliant suspension of the yz.
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Gpnewhouse7 I would love the bike you described,it's alway's better moving forward than back. Hope we inspire someone to build this bike! I don't want a old motor in my 07 frame, just a better motor and 6 speed transmisson and would prefer it to be a swap my old motor out and drop the new one in. Kick the monster to life and ride. Sound's like a plan to me how about you? Now let's get the right people on the job and get these bike's for sale. I'm ready to buy one and ride. KIM
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Hope we inspire someone to build this bike!
I'm inspired to build it. Can I have about $6,000 for the necessary components? 
Just kidding, but there are some guys making some pretty cool bike concoctions, mostly KTM stuff though.
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Cnrcpla, 6,000 dollar's is pretty reasonable sounding to me. I think it might cost a little more. Wish i knew some one on this site to mock up a computer image of the bike were talking about. A bike, i guess you would call it a cr for now but no longer a honda cr. What component's that are put on the bike are the best that's here right now ktm motor,yamaha sst fork's, maybe even the yamaha transmission if it can be made as good or better than the best transmission out now. Just the best part's for the money, and for me if i were dreaming what ever that is that make's a steel framed or aluminum framed honda cr125 handle the way a honda cr125 handles,the red plastic the 07 front and rear fender and you say for 6,000 dollar's. CNRCPLA if you can build that bike with a smart carb and a few other new technology for 6 or 7 maybe even dare i say it 8,000 dollar's your in the motorcycle business. Cnrcpla i'm going to bed so i can get to work tomorrow and ask my boss for overtime,so i can buy one of these bike's. You stay up and get started on the bike's.6000 dollar's sound good,very good. Is it to early to place an order? KIM
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getting a bit off topic now arnt you?
anyhow, 1800 to 2500 for a motor?
you must be smoking crack mate!
Theres alot more to it that you think there is, unless there was a market for 10,000+ motors you wouldnt even get close to that price.
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lets build a rocketship with a yankee motor and a titanium quad frame with three wheels and a bannana seat and a sissy bar and a tall orange flag. that would be cool.
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I don't get it if honda,yamaha,kawasaki,suzuki,ktm and other's can build a 125 2-stroke for less than 7,000 dollar's why cant someone else?All the technology here.No i don't do crack and to suggest i do because i think a reasonable priced bike is possible is as mike tyson would say ludacrist.In the car market you can get pretty much any part o.e.m. or after market, how much easier is a 2-stroke dirt bike.We just need the right people to step up.Better than acussing people of being on crack. KIM
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Rider's, I love all the reply's i've gotten to my post. I still think a kick butt 125 2-stroke built by who ever should cost roughly the same as one built by the bike manufacturer's. I also understand the more trick the part's the more the money. I would still love a bike to buy with all the part's on it from day one, rather than buy a bike for 5,000 or 6,000 dollar's only to take a part off throw it in the corner and put the new part on. Waste of money,time and effort.The more i think about it the more i'm convinced it's possible to build a cost effective bike.All the bike manufacture's sell these bike's for a certain price and do you ever think how much of that price you pay is for thing's other than the cost of making the bike.Advertising, marketing,the price of the rider they hired to ride the bike, etc, etc, all of these add to the cost of the bike.Makes me wonder what the actual cost to make a bike really is?I also wonder why people act like it's impossible to build a bike for x amount of dollar's when other's have done it and make a profit. Super trucker you'r right a new cr125 isnt as bad as reported but there is room for improvement. I would love to buy a bike with the part's i want on it straight out of the gate. Here's an example i cut my handlebar's off on almost ever bike i've owned,and have to cut brand new grip's off the bike to do this, would'nt it be nice if i could order my bike done up the way i like from day one.The factory rider's get this done for them and if you think about it anyone who's bought a bike has paid for that factory rider's bike,salery, mechanic, etc, etc.I would love to pick even the shape,color and style of the plastic i buy,seem's funny that people make so many part's out of aluminum or carbon fiber that could be plastic.I mean as malluble as plastic is you still never see someone with custom shaped fender's,numberplate's unless they hack some off with a saw.Don't get me wrong i think the 04-07 honda cr's are the best looking bike's man has ever made and only a few thing's on these bike's need upgrading about the same for all brand's of bike's. Nom if you'r not ragging on me ignore the next line if you are ragging on me is it pixie dust you want to power you'r bike or is it fairy dust. KIM
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SFB Racing in Italy had a 6th gear kit for CRs.... May be a real PITA to track that down however... For most mortals, 5 gears is plenty. Super Trucker knows his stuff when it comes to cr125s...
Meh. Doesnt hurt to dream I guess.
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Cnrcpla, 6,000 dollar's is pretty reasonable sounding to me. I think it might cost a little more. Wish i knew some one on this site to mock up a computer image of the bike were talking about. A bike, i guess you would call it a cr for now but no longer a honda cr. What component's that are put on the bike are the best that's here right now ktm motor,yamaha sst fork's, maybe even the yamaha transmission if it can be made as good or better than the best transmission out now. Just the best part's for the money, and for me if i were dreaming what ever that is that make's a steel framed or aluminum framed honda cr125 handle the way a honda cr125 handles,the red plastic the 07 front and rear fender and you say for 6,000 dollar's. CNRCPLA if you can build that bike with a smart carb and a few other new technology for 6 or 7 maybe even dare i say it 8,000 dollar's your in the motorcycle business. Cnrcpla i'm going to bed so i can get to work tomorrow and ask my boss for overtime,so i can buy one of these bike's. You stay up and get started on the bike's.6000 dollar's sound good,very good. Is it to early to place an order? KIM
I probably low-balled it at 6k, but the only other factor your missing up there that is worth even more than money is TIME. Unfortunately, I don't have the time or all the skills to make it... Going to school and working has left me with very little time, time that I fill with riding. But, hey if I had a bunch of help and some sponsorship money to get this project in the air, I could probably make most of it work. The other odds and ends like a custom pipe and plastics would probably have to be dealt with by someone else. But, like the others have said, its mostly fantasy and preference. But that frankin-bike with all the best parts would be a beast if it was built right.
PS: even if someone was to build it for 6k, I am willing to bet that they would sell it for at least 50% more, like say 9k at least.
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SRS racing has the trickest cr125 stuff. A higher 1st gear, there pistons are the best racing piston available. There focus is on 4-st now. They once had heads with fins, there own pipe and silencer, ignition made by jd, reeds, plug wire, carbon fiber and factory mag. ignition,clutch covers, porting,etc. I ordered a bunch of stuff in 05, then the USA importer went out of buisness
. On the Italian site they only show 125 pistons, I,m sure they have the 1st gear yet. Jm racing in Texas helped SRS with there motor program, for racing the 125 gp,s. Jm racing built Ryan Dungee,s Rm125, Josh Grant,s cr125, Team Grean 125,s Tara Giegers 04 cr125 54mm bore with stroker crank that pulled holeshots all year, and my 04. The trick parts went away when the pro,s switched to 4-sts.
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It sure suck's that companies like srs racing were so short sided in their marketing.If i was srs racing i'd be still selling my stuff,especially if it's the best. Maybe someone should contact them and tell them,show them all the rider's still on 2-stroke's, maybe just maybe knock some sense into their head and get back some kick butt products for 2-stroke's. I mean if some component is best even if the company does'nt make them any more contact them give em a chance to respond before moving on to the next company.In these economic time's it might be just the right thing to do to motovate that company. Some of you make building a bike sound like it's a dream maybe i am being optimistic but it's better than being defeated before you try.I'm no engineer but i've done better than90% of the work on my bike's through out the year's.Never fabricated any part's,but with the right tool's and material's i know i could make some radiator guard's for my bike not the radiator's themselves. I've got enough sense to let a radiator company do that for me. Just like alot of o.e.m. part's on our bike's their's a better part made at another company. I want to see what component's are best and readily available and what component's would need to be made to achieve a project like this. I think it would be tough but no way impossible.Beside's if i was an engineer this is the kind of challenge you live to conquer!!! KIM
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I am an engineer and Ive built custom bikes
I'm telling you, dont do it! Buy the bloody TM
9 thousand dollars and two years later you will have a half finished bike in the shed... wishing that you'd just bought the TM125 !
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Jeram, The more this post goes on, the more i can see every part on my 07 cr125. I'm looking at it here in my garage/office and there's not a component on this bike that's unobtainable.There's no sense in ignoring all the engineering that got the bike's to this level.Whether you like honda's or not. If honda did nothing more than fix the flaw's of the 125 & 250 cr's and sold today basically kick butt 2007 cr's.How many honda rider's would'nt want one of those bike's? I say alot of rider's would be at a honda shop put'in their hard earned money down. Does'nt look like honda's gonna do it so it's time someone does to show honda and the rest of the bike manufacture's we are capable of it our selve's. My 07's getting long in the tooth like everyone else's.If i'm not mistaken the majority of rider's are cr rider's, so why not build a bike if it's nothing more than assembling the part's. If it's custom the sky's the limit on price,materials,time and a slew of other thing's and usually ending in a show piece. I want a race bike not a show piece.The only thing i see holding this back is a frame maker' swing arm maker, and motor and transmission. Sound's like alot ,but does'nt brown brother's racing make frame's and swingarm's?If they do and wanted to do it, it would only leaves us with the motor and trans and back in the day athena made motor's for kx and yz's so it seem's possible that some company could do the same here maybe even athena. Now that leave's the tranmission Don't know of any after market cr transmission's or any after market transmission's for any bike.Have heard of rapid prototyping ,c.n.c. machining and i think if you break it down like this and look at all the info out there it's more than possible and it's long over do. Even if you tried sst fork's or some thing else new not on the bike now,the vender's if they want the business they'll sell or you move on to the next vender. Us american's as well as the rest of the world got these bike's built to this level by our blood,sweat and tear's as well as by our dollar's and if the manufacture's don't want to build them well it suck's to be them, and it's time to step up cause the bike manufacture's won't so it's time we do. At this point in my rant i have patriotic music in the background it fire's me up!What's it take to fire up the right people to get these bike's built? It should only take the sound of a 2-stroke,the smell of a 2-stroke,the sight of a 2-stroke,the touch of a 2-stroke ok you got me on taste of a 2-stroke but all the rest should be enough to get the job done. Now who's up to the task?
?? KIM
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Kim the problem with building a production bike that is exactly as you want it is that:
1) Everyones ideal bike is different.
2) The cost would be so high that it would make a 450 seem like a bargain.
3) Why would another company want to build a Honda? They would want their brand name on for advertising if the bike won.
I know what your trying to do but you would be better off doing a conversion or modifying your cr and just posting the results for others in order to inspire them to do the same which could eventually lead to a service honda style company specializing in the building of these bikes commercially.
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Rider's, I love all the reply's i've gotten to my post. I still think a kick butt 125 2-stroke built by who ever should cost roughly the same as one built by the bike manufacturer's.
And I'd like a gold plated toilet seat. Probability of both are similar.
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Super trucker, You telling me a person can buy a cr125 motor that would fit in a 07 cr125 frame?Then tell me if it's possible to take my 07 transmission and make a 6 speed out of it.Truth is you and me seem to differ on 5 speed or 6 speed for the transmission, but i'm willing to bet the transmission case's could work for both of us. If they don't already now a little engineering would fix it.Now one of you said about getting all the honda rider's agreeing on one bike and you'r right that's a little tougher ,but one thing's for sure a real honda rider want's a cr to ride and the 04-07 cr 125 is awesome, only need's a few fix'es same thing with the cr250.From what i've seen right here on this site it seem's like every thing i've said is really already done. Another one of you said about a company would'nt want to build a honda cr125 as if it would hurt their pride.Honda got their technology from you and me.Anyone whoever bought a honda paid for that technology and if honda does'nt want to build these bike's let someone else do it.Honda threw this technology away and as far as i'm consurned i'd be proud to be part of a company that could build a good as or better honda cr125.If you can do it it's quite a achievement cause a honda built bike is a excellent machine.Gpnewhouse7, you said about the service honda 125.I can't take the 2-stroke motor's in those over-sized 4$ frame's. The frame's should be made purpose built for the motor like they use to be and like i say the RIGHT WAY. Maybe i'm a little crazy but the 04-07 honda cr125 & cr250 are great looking machine and i don't think the new plastic that come's on the 4$ look's as good as my plastic, neither does the 4$ frame. Now if the frame's have been improved since 07 and that technology will work on the 2-stroke than add that technology and if the frame's are better. What's better is it a less vibrating frame,lighter weight,stronger??The only plastic thing i would change on my 07 cr125 is the front number plate. The shield if turned right on a can of raid bug poison would look cool as a front number plate.Look's kind of like a praying mantis head. KIM
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ortho is good for killing bugs.
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Not quiet sure what the cr125 obsession is all about... Have you test riden the latest offering from tm and fantic, ktm and husky?
I'm just not sure if your understanding what I'm telling you.
So lets put it this way, If it was affordable to make a one off frame and Swing arm which is better than the engineers at Honda could manage don't you think we'd all have one?
Before arguing. Try calling these frame guys and ask them how much it will cost to design and fabricate one chassis. If I'm wrong I will eat humble pie.
If u want people to get on board with your idea you will need to do your homework by working out exactly how much every component will cost. It will take some effort but shouldn't take longer that a couple weeks.
But I think mainly your missing the point, you want a remanufactured and updated CR125.... That's pretty much a TM125. If you succeeded in getting a company to make an updated cr125 for you it will pretty much be a tm125!!!
To do list for you:
Book yourself a test ride on a TM
Do your homework on costs
Work out whether what your trying to acheive is already for sale (TM)
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I am not a TM fan personally, but Jeram is correct. I was also never a fan of mid-'90s Hondas but if you want a base idea of the cost of doing this, price a Service Honda. The idea here is that they have created/copied their own frame (not a kit to stiff into a 250F/450F frame). They also buy NEW big motors from Honda, not Craigs List dogs that are freshened up. They have some production line service and dealer discount to lower the price a bit but you will be going a bit smaller so figure retail is about a good starting point and go up from there.
Although I highly respect TM and really love their commitment and what they are doing, I have just had bad luck with them in the past. That may have had a lot to do with the sketchy dealer network in the '90's and less to do with the machines, but...
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all fair points
