Post by: motoman356 on October 14, 2012, 03:32:51 AM
Post by: xandyx on October 14, 2012, 01:57:16 PM
even with all the mods, it's way cheaper than stock bikes over here.
Post by: beaner on October 14, 2012, 06:17:07 PM
Post by: motoman356 on October 14, 2012, 09:13:57 PM
Post by: Suzuki TS250/185 on October 14, 2012, 11:36:25 PM
Even in a magazine that will actually do a "Cool, Cheap used 2 Stroke" article, you can't break free of the rhetoric of the exhalted corporate sponsor, and it's butt-stinking fooper.
They'll do the 2 stroke article, but not without kissing some fooper ass in there as well. Jimmy Lewis broke with the formula for a little while at the end of his term as Editor... and low and behold all of a sudden he wasn't Editor anymore!
Post by: motoman356 on October 15, 2012, 03:35:11 AM
look at this way both bikes produce roughly 34-37 hp @ 11k rpms. but a 250 makes more in the low to mid range and thats where the extra speed comes from cuz you can carry more speed in turn with less effort. when you start modding bikes the KX250f puts down 45hp and the ktm 150 puts down 40hp.
the benefits of the 125 is lighter weight and its cheaper. the 125s are fast and its been proven that with a fast enough rider you can be competitive but its like fighting with a sword vs a gun. theres a reason why armies stopped using swords.
its just calling it like it is
Post by: Sheriff on October 15, 2012, 02:31:17 PM
no mags a pretty much right about even with a 144 kit its still slower than a 250f. now the gap is still there but its there. ive ridden and raced both over the past ten years.
look at this way both bikes produce roughly 34-37 hp @ 11k rpms. but a 250 makes more in the low to mid range and thats where the extra speed comes from cuz you can carry more speed in turn with less effort. when you start modding bikes the KX250f puts down 45hp and the ktm 150 puts down 40hp.
the benefits of the 125 is lighter weight and its cheaper. the 125s are fast and its been proven that with a fast enough rider you can be competitive but its like fighting with a sword vs a gun. theres a reason why armies stopped using swords.
its just calling it like it is
Being right is not allowed here. Be prepared to get roosted for your comments!
Post by: Super Trucker on October 15, 2012, 06:07:45 PM
At the hit a it will jump out front of a 250f and they can,t pull the 04 cr125 144 in.
Post by: motoman356 on October 15, 2012, 08:04:47 PM
Post by: gpnewhouse7 on October 15, 2012, 10:47:47 PM
I'm not saying that it is impossible for a 125 to beat a 250f or that a 250 cannot beat a 450f but that will only happen if the two stroke rider is a better rider. If Dungey had took a 250 sx out to the nationals then Villopoto would have kicked his ass.
Its sad but true the race engines have been made non competitive by allowing lawn mower engines to have double their displacement some of us on here need to leave their own little world and visit the real one for a while just until they understand that the pro's do race the fastest bikes that they are allowed to race in their specific class.
Post by: TMKIWI on October 16, 2012, 08:27:34 AM
its just calling it like it is
Yes it is.
Being right is not allowed here. Be prepared to get roosted for your comments!
He should be fine.
Its sad but true the race engines have been made non competitive by allowing lawn mower engines to have double their displacement some of us on here need to leave their own little world and visit the real one for a while just until they understand that the pro's do race the fastest bikes that they are allowed to race in their specific class.
Yes they do.
Post by: luthier269 on October 17, 2012, 04:51:39 AM
Post by: gpnewhouse7 on October 17, 2012, 06:06:28 AM
My Real world is in the amatuer class at our local tracks. And most pros don't buy their bikes so most new bike sales come from amatuers. With the displacment rule for amatuers 250 to 250 the switch started. Yesterday I went to the local track for practice there were more Two -strokes than Four strokes. I know personaly alot of parents that quit racing and riding because of blown up four strokes that were fairly new that blew and they could not afford to fix so they quit racing. Yesterday one of the top amatures and he is one of the top racers at Lorettas was praticing on a new husky 125 and passing everyone on the track. His dad said they can't break it . He also told me about there band new Crf250 the exploded the engine with 10hrs on it and needs a new engine these kind of things are ruining our sport. I Don't care what the pros ride its the amatuers that drive the market. Eventually the tide will turn and I think it is turning right now!
The article said that a 125/144 wasn't as FAST as a 250f. They never said that a 250f was more reliable or cheaper to run. Also here in England they either race as full open and classes are based on skill levels or they race 125/250f and 250/450f.
Post by: luthier269 on October 17, 2012, 10:43:25 PM
Post by: factoryX on October 18, 2012, 01:38:14 PM
Its sad but true the race engines have been made non competitive by allowing lawn mower engines to have double their displacement some of us on here need to leave their own little world and visit the real one for a while just until they understand that the pro's do race the fastest bikes that they are allowed to race in their specific class.The works bikes the so called "Pros" ride are nothing compared to stock. MXA got a hold of Ryan Villopoto's works bike and they could barely ride the bastard.
http://motocrossactionmag.com/Main/News/6e8727d8-08b6-4f67-bd04-56148a336b9d.aspx
Check out the list of works goodies as well. So if they have trouble riding a 60hp works 450, then what exactly are people expecting from a 55-60hp works 250 2t?
Post by: 2STROKEREVOLUTION on October 19, 2012, 07:35:03 AM
At the end of the day the 250f IS faster than a 125 (like for like) just the same as the 450f IS faster than the 250 smoker, if they werent then the pro's wouldn't race the fourstrokes. Double displacement (or there abouts for the 450 class) will make a bike faster, If they allowed a diesel to race the 125 class with a 500cc maximum displacement limit then diesels would win. Its a fact of life, there is no replacement for displacement.
I'm not saying that it is impossible for a 125 to beat a 250f or that a 250 cannot beat a 450f but that will only happen if the two stroke rider is a better rider. If Dungey had took a 250 sx out to the nationals then Villopoto would have kicked his ass.
Its sad but true the race engines have been made non competitive by allowing lawn mower engines to have double their displacement some of us on here need to leave their own little world and visit the real one for a while just until they understand that the pro's do race the fastest bikes that they are allowed to race in their specific class.
250F's aren't necessarily faster. Consider what has happened: The fastest riders were the last riders to switch to 4-strokes. They felt they were still faster, until the manufacturers forced them to switch. Second, it isn't just a displacement rule against 2-strokes, they set the weight rules to favor 4-strokes. The difference between a stock and factory 450 is a good 20lbs+. 250 2-strokes are given about 5lbs that they can drop.
So in the real world, you know, where WE actually ride, a 144 will easily be faster than a 250F. The bike will retain the weight advantage. The 125s already match or beat 250Fs in peak power, so a 144 can bring up the mid to have a more usable powerband.
The 4-strokes have one real benefit. Like the "big bang" theory in street bikes, the firing cycles is spaced longer, letting the tire hook up better on loose ground.
Post by: gpnewhouse7 on October 19, 2012, 03:50:30 PM
At the end of the day the 250f IS faster than a 125 (like for like) just the same as the 450f IS faster than the 250 smoker, if they werent then the pro's wouldn't race the fourstrokes. Double displacement (or there abouts for the 450 class) will make a bike faster, If they allowed a diesel to race the 125 class with a 500cc maximum displacement limit then diesels would win. Its a fact of life, there is no replacement for displacement.
I'm not saying that it is impossible for a 125 to beat a 250f or that a 250 cannot beat a 450f but that will only happen if the two stroke rider is a better rider. If Dungey had took a 250 sx out to the nationals then Villopoto would have kicked his ass.
Its sad but true the race engines have been made non competitive by allowing lawn mower engines to have double their displacement some of us on here need to leave their own little world and visit the real one for a while just until they understand that the pro's do race the fastest bikes that they are allowed to race in their specific class.
250F's aren't necessarily faster. Consider what has happened: The fastest riders were the last riders to switch to 4-strokes. They felt they were still faster, until the manufacturers forced them to switch. Second, it isn't just a displacement rule against 2-strokes, they set the weight rules to favor 4-strokes. The difference between a stock and factory 450 is a good 20lbs+. 250 2-strokes are given about 5lbs that they can drop.
So in the real world, you know, where WE actually ride, a 144 will easily be faster than a 250F. The bike will retain the weight advantage. The 125s already match or beat 250Fs in peak power, so a 144 can bring up the mid to have a more usable powerband.
The 4-strokes have one real benefit. Like the "big bang" theory in street bikes, the firing cycles is spaced longer, letting the tire hook up better on loose ground.
If you race on tight grippy tracks that don't get huge acceleration and braking bumps then sure a 144 or 125 probably is faster than a 250f but having rode a 2011 KTM 144 and a 2011 RMZ 250 I would put my money on the 250f being faster on any other type of track. The modern fourstrokes aren't as heavy as you think either I actually found the RMZ almost as flickable as the 02 KTM 125 that I rode directly after it and a LOT more flickable than the 250 KX that I rode that day aswell and down the straights the RMZ could easily hang with the big green smoker.
Frourstrokes are fast, I like them, just a shame theyrso expensive for rebouilds.
Post by: chump6784 on October 19, 2012, 09:47:16 PM
Seems a lot of people only think of four strokes when they first came out and ignore the fact that they have been improving all the time. You still wont find me on a four stroke but they are a very good race machine
Post by: twosmoke595 on October 20, 2012, 12:25:53 AM
There is no way a 125 can hang with a current model 250f. When the 250f's were first introduced there was not a lot of difference but the 250f's have come a long way since their early days. The 2013 250f's are making the same peak power as a KTM 150 and they do it over a broader power band.
Seems a lot of people only think of four strokes when they first came out and ignore the fact that they have been improving all the time. You still wont find me on a four stroke but they are a very good race machine
agreed, if they cost the same as 2 strokes then you might've seen me on one, they're great bikes IF you can afford them
Post by: chump6784 on October 20, 2012, 06:14:54 AM
Post by: luthier269 on October 20, 2012, 06:22:52 AM
Post by: TotalNZ on October 20, 2012, 10:58:45 AM
its not the affordability that stops me riding a 4 stroke, i simply dont find them enjoyable to ride. The 250f's feel gutless and the 450's just feel like big heavy pigs.X2 I'd definately be fastest on a 250f but i'd also be bored with it real quick.
Post by: Super Trucker on October 20, 2012, 08:09:55 PM
Post by: nom de guerre on October 20, 2012, 08:30:35 PM
Post by: TMKIWI on October 20, 2012, 10:08:35 PM
Put 2 equal riders on a 125 and a 250F and the 125 does not have a chance.
Roczen proved that last year when he finished 5th on the 125. He was winning on the 250F.
Post by: nom de guerre on October 20, 2012, 10:53:55 PM
Post by: motoman356 on October 20, 2012, 11:02:24 PM
however im still not getting a 250f. i love riding them and i loved racing them and if i had the money i might pick one up again. but i have a low budget and delusions of being the "hero" still and i hate not being able to enhoy a 125 ( im really rusty). so my plans are to get the susp revalved and hopefully put in a 139 kit for more power and get into regular riding to shake off the dust. i plan to keep this thing till i get to the point where my skills (or weight) surpass the bikes abilities.
Post by: scotty dog on October 20, 2012, 11:38:10 PM
Steve Lamson showed what a 125 can do when he whipped everybody at the MXdN... But most people aren't that capable or lack the will to shred on a 125. Your example is a great one ST.Oh yeah I remember that, I also remember Jeff Emig and Everts running 4th n 5th in 125/500 race at the 92 MXDN, and Manjimup is half sand half super hard pack!
Post by: gpnewhouse7 on October 21, 2012, 07:31:58 AM
The above 2 examples just prove it is the rider, not the bike.
Put 2 equal riders on a 125 and a 250F and the 125 does not have a chance.
Roczen proved that last year when he finished 5th on the 125. He was winning on the 250F.
Finally another member who can also see the difference between a faster bike and a faster rider.
Post by: twosmoke595 on October 21, 2012, 04:55:01 PM
The above 2 examples just prove it is the rider, not the bike.
Put 2 equal riders on a 125 and a 250F and the 125 does not have a chance.
Roczen proved that last year when he finished 5th on the 125. He was winning on the 250F.
from what i heard, that 125 didnt have hardly anything done to it besides suspension and pipe
Post by: _X_ on October 21, 2012, 09:32:30 PM
Post by: TMKIWI on October 22, 2012, 07:36:50 AM
from what i heard, that 125 didnt have hardly anything done to it besides suspension and pipe
Yes it did.
Post by: dean100yz on October 22, 2012, 12:09:10 PM
There is no way a 125 can hang with a current model 250f. When the 250f's were first introduced there was not a lot of difference but the 250f's have come a long way since their early days. The 2013 250f's are making the same peak power as a KTM 150 and they do it over a broader power band.
Seems a lot of people only think of four strokes when they first came out and ignore the fact that they have been improving all the time. You still wont find me on a four stroke but they are a very good race machine
I gotta agree with this. Have two mint RM 250's but they wont run with my CRF450. I absolutely love my smokers but at my level when racing hard as I can I find the CRF can pull a tighter line, still hook up and clear everything I need and it makes a bit more up top too
Post by: dean100yz on October 22, 2012, 12:11:32 PM
its not the affordability that stops me riding a 4 stroke, i simply dont find them enjoyable to ride. The 250f's feel gutless and the 450's just feel like big heavy pigs.
I think 4 strokes do give a softer impression than 2 strokes especially the smaller class.
Not sure when you last rode a 450 though as Id say 'big heavy pigs' was maybe something of 8-10 years ago. Theres very little in it between my RM and CRF. I will say though when tracks get real muddy/sticky the RM is much better thats when you feel the weight of the CRF
Post by: SachsGS on October 22, 2012, 03:20:16 PM
Post by: beaner on October 22, 2012, 04:29:27 PM
The latest Kaw 450f's are 260 lbs. with a dry tank.
Post by: twosmoke595 on October 22, 2012, 05:50:16 PM
The latest Kaw 450f's are 260 lbs. with a dry tank.
ya, all of the new 450's are teetering on the 240-250+ mark DRY
Post by: nom de guerre on October 22, 2012, 06:21:43 PM
Post by: Super Trucker on October 22, 2012, 07:41:18 PM
Steve Lamson showed what a 125 can do when he whipped everybody at the MXdN... But most people aren't that capable or lack the will to shred on a 125. Your example is a great one ST.Yeah thx NDG. Most passes are made coming into corners, through the corner and exiting corners. Practice in sand or loam, it,s soft if ya hit the ground pushing your skill limit. You should be on the gas,when the 4-st. are off the gas, hard on the brakes with the bike uprite, then dive inside or outside to inside, take the 4-st line on the exit. Depending on the corner, there,s many more options. The gforces in some corners-warning is addicting
. When young riders with there dad,s sit and watch you rail corners, you now know your on the right track. And soon with more commitment, you,ll become an elite 125 specialist.
Post by: twosmoke595 on October 22, 2012, 10:14:06 PM
The latest Kaw 450f's are 260 lbs. with a dry tank.
ya, all of the new 450's are teetering on the 240-250+ mark DRY
i mean really, we are on the verge of xr territory here. i personally hope they do, xr400's weigh what? 280?
Post by: cnrcpla on October 23, 2012, 01:01:07 AM
Post by: twosmoke595 on October 23, 2012, 03:49:54 AM
I'll throw some off road tires on a harley and go down to the track... I don't see why not, I mean its heavier, but at what point is it too heavy? At 560 lbs, were on our way
super bad quality but this speaks for itself....
Post by: motoman356 on October 23, 2012, 04:45:10 AM
Post by: shanes on October 23, 2012, 08:34:17 AM
Post by: Stusmoke on October 23, 2012, 09:36:16 AM
I rode my YZ250 for the first time in a couple of months today. I leaned it over in a corner and just about fell flat, it was much heavier than the 125 and thats two stroke v two stroke and only about 10-20 pounds heavier. 250Fs feel like a buffalo that just spent the last 20 minutes with a taser on its wang in the corners, so I can't imagine how a 450 would feel.
Steve Lamson showed what a 125 can do when he whipped everybody at the MXdN... But most people aren't that capable or lack the will to shred on a 125. Your example is a great one ST.Yeah thx NDG. Most passes are made coming into corners, through the corner and exiting corners. Practice in sand or loam, it,s soft if ya hit the ground pushing your skill limit. You should be on the gas,when the 4-st. are off the gas, hard on the brakes with the bike uprite, then dive inside or outside to inside, take the 4-st line on the exit. Depending on the corner, there,s many more options. The gforces in some corners-warning is addicting
Agreed.
To the bloke who was having trouble on his RM125 and loved his brothers RMZ250, give your 125 time. At first the hardest part of a 125 for me was multitasking between clutching and the corner itself. After a certain point the corner will become second nature and after a later point both will be a second nature. Its at that point you can focus on going faster and faster until you're tearing your brother a new one on the track.
Post by: chump6784 on October 23, 2012, 11:10:01 AM
The last 450 I rode was an 11 yzf. Of all the 450's the crf is the lightestits not the affordability that stops me riding a 4 stroke, i simply dont find them enjoyable to ride. The 250f's feel gutless and the 450's just feel like big heavy pigs.
I think 4 strokes do give a softer impression than 2 strokes especially the smaller class.
Not sure when you last rode a 450 though as Id say 'big heavy pigs' was maybe something of 8-10 years ago. Theres very little in it between my RM and CRF. I will say though when tracks get real muddy/sticky the RM is much better thats when you feel the weight of the CRF
Post by: Suzuki TS250/185 on October 23, 2012, 01:24:12 PM
Of first let me say that 250Fs are faster than 125s. Period. No debates, no discussions, faster. The KX250F makes about 40 at Peak. Below and above it still leads most other 250Fs. A 125 makes what? 34 if you're lucky, I think the '12 SX125 was a little over 34.
Since the 250f FOOPER is SO MUCH HEAVIER than a 125 - about 35 Farty Lbs. heavier - they NEED that extra peak horsepower just to have a chance... Kind of like how if you watch Fat People on a leg press machine, they can leg press a little more than skinny people... but they can't win a race up the stairs!
I love Nate Page's video. This kid get's passed by two other guys on 2 strokes, while all the foopers, even dual injected foopers, fall way, far behind.... so far in fact, that you can hardly hear their forlorn farty sound until they're being lapped... Broome is a Scary track with huge uphills, so it's easy to understand how the 4 stroke riders on their farty bikes were having a hard time up all the hills.
It doesn't help at all to have about 1/6th more peak power when you also weigh 1/6th more, and furthermore, you need that power because of being such a fatass, or you'd be completely pathetic!
That's probably why a lot of the fast kids at Broome Tioga have started to call 250 fourstonks "Foo-Fifties!
I rode my YZ250 for the first time in a couple of months today. I leaned it over in a corner and just about fell flat, it was much heavier than the 125 and thats two stroke v two stroke and only about 10-20 pounds heavier. 250Fs feel like a buffalo that just spent the last 20 minutes with a taser on its wang in the corners, so I can't imagine how a 450 would feel.
A YZ250 is really light feeling and flickable. There's not really much difference in feel between it and the 125 except that you have so much more power on tap. A Foo-Fifty feels like Miss Piggy after a trip to Krispy Kreme on someone else's debit card in the corners, so I can't imagine what a FourFoopty must feel like even if there was a 4 stroke troll on board, pretending to be into two strokes on a twostroke board, while always trying to hype Foopers.Steve Lamson showed what a 125 can do when he whipped everybody at the MXdN... But most people aren't that capable or lack the will to shred on a 125. Your example is a great one ST.Yeah thx NDG. Most passes are made coming into corners, through the corner and exiting corners. Practice in sand or loam, it,s soft if ya hit the ground pushing your skill limit. You should be on the gas,when the 4-st. are off the gas, hard on the brakes with the bike uprite, then dive inside or outside to inside, take the 4-st line on the exit. Depending on the corner, there,s many more options. The gforces in some corners-warning is addicting
Agreed.
To the bloke who was having trouble on his RM125 and loved his brothers RMZ250, give your 125 time. At first the hardest part of a 125 for me was multitasking between clutching and the corner itself. After a certain point the corner will become second nature and after a later point both will be a second nature. Its at that point you can focus on going faster and faster until you're tearing your brother a new one on the track.
This is a good point! There are definitely people and places that are suited to 4 stonks. As far as people go, some are 4 stonkers right from the beginning. When most of us started riding, there were probably some people at the local riding areas we looked up to becasue they were the fastest... They were the "Badass" guys who raced, won, and had the fastest, baddest bikes. CRs, KXs, YZs. Fast intimidating bikes, too much for a beginner... Bringing up the other end of the spectrum, every neighborhood usually has one kid who couldn't really ever ride BMX, wasn't ever allowed on a skateboard, etc... That kid would always have a 4 stroke if he rode dirtbikes at all, because it's a perfect fit. The smooth, unintimidating power is just right to putt around on. The bike never feels like it's "In a hurry" the way a 2 stroke does with it's impatient charge through each gear, so it won't get out of control with a more timid rider on board. You can relax on a Fooper and just putt around. The bike will not urge you on constantly the way a 2 stroke will, always feeling like it wants to charge and run wide open. True, this makes the 4 stonk feel dead and bloated by comparison, but if that's what you want or need so that you won't be intimidated, hey that's fine with Big Gay Al...
As far as Places that are more suited to a four stonk, there's the recycling center where you can bring scrap metal and they weigh it in and give you cash. Becasue the 4 stonks are about 1/6th heavier than the 2 strokes that are allowed to compete against them, they will get you more money if you want to just hammer them apart with a sledge hammer and take'em to the dump. Plus, becasue they break down in a catastrophic manner, and much more often, the opportunity to hammer them apart with a sledge hammer and take them to the dump comes sooner and/or much more frequently. You get way more chances to take your bike to the Dump and get some cash with a four stonk than you do with a pesky 2 stoke that just keeps starting and running without problems for Years...
Post by: gpnewhouse7 on October 23, 2012, 02:18:17 PM
Seriously though a 250f IS faster and doesn't FEEL much heavier than a 125. Your starting to sound like a 4 year old talking about how hard your dad is.
Also your talking utter rubbish about the 250 two stroke feeling heavier, you need more upper strength but I have owned both and if anything the 250 felt lighter due to how the extra power seems to lighten the bike.
Post by: Suzuki TS250/185 on October 23, 2012, 03:13:56 PM
You can see in the video how much slower the Foo-Fifty Four Turds are.... I mean they fall behind very quickly, but that's probably not the kind of quickness they paid for.... oops...
Seriously though, I'm a big four stroke fan... I like the way you don't even have to run the pieces through the parts washer before you take them into the dump for cash... They don't penalize you for that. They still give you the going scrap rate for any four stroke. I only beat them into pieces before taking them to the dump for cash so that i can separate out the more valuable metals like the copper, and trade them seperately for a higher rate, plus it's easier to seareate out the plastic parts that way as a coutesy.
Seriously though, four strokes don't sell very well but they RULE at the dump when you want to get cash for scrap metal.
Post by: gpnewhouse7 on October 23, 2012, 04:50:14 PM
Was that not you that wrote that?
I'm not going to argue with you on here so can you please just accept that a modern fourstroke is faster due to its double displacement advantage over the two stroke. If you don't like modern four strokes then fair enough but why make stuff in order to make the two stroke seem faster when it just isn't (under the stupid rules of today). Also yes everyone knows about the modern fourstroke rebuild costs but we (me and twosmoke) said that this is what put us off them.
I love two strokes as much as any other member of this site, I'm an engineer how could I not love the brilliance of the two stroke engine BUT I am also mature enough to be able to realize that the modern stroker can compete with its huge displacement advantage.
Post by: Super Trucker on October 23, 2012, 05:51:42 PM
. It was ported by northshore racing when I got it. Yeah I put that seat cover on it haha. I rode that bike year round in the snow on mx tracks, on the ice, tresspassed and made a track on a sandy- ski hill . On a 500 foot or so verticle drop, there was a wood ramp for ski jumping on 1 of the hills. I jumped up and down that hill, and climbed a 200 verticle ramp on the side, then pancake the bike turn 80 degrees in the air then drop down the 500 foot verticle drop. That was more of a rush than bungee jumping. I talked a pal into borrowing a yz250, where ripping the hill up, then we drag raced and hit the ponds in top gear, over and over we crossed the large ponds . On the shore it was greasy mud, we where tearing it up, fly in spin the cr around and roost the shit out of him. We where trying to out do each other, so I stepped it up and was sitting on the bike backwards, then he flys in jumps off the borrwed 250 and tacles me off my bike, then we started whooping each other, dragging each other threw the mud, laughing so hard we couldn,t breath. Then rip across the ponds again. We couldn,t believe the cr kept running, the yz250 stopping running in water over the bars, we just dragged it out, returned the 250 all muddy, gave him a case of beer and 20 bucks.haha Lets see a 25 yr old 250f go threw that and still run.
Post by: Stusmoke on October 23, 2012, 10:39:24 PM
rode my YZ250 for the first time in a couple of months today. I leaned it over in a corner and just about fell flat, it was much heavier than the 125 and thats two stroke v two stroke and only about 10-20 pounds heavier.
Was that not you that wrote that?
I'm not going to argue with you on here so can you please just accept that a modern fourstroke is faster due to its double displacement advantage over the two stroke. If you don't like modern four strokes then fair enough but why make stuff in order to make the two stroke seem faster when it just isn't (under the stupid rules of today). Also yes everyone knows about the modern fourstroke rebuild costs but we (me and twosmoke) said that this is what put us off them.
I love two strokes as much as any other member of this site, I'm an engineer how could I not love the brilliance of the two stroke engine BUT I am also mature enough to be able to realize that the modern stroker can compete with its huge displacement advantage.
Eh? Mate I was agreeing with you. I only used that YZ250 sentence to preface how heavy a 250F and 450 must feel. My YZ250 feels heavier than my 125 in the corners cos you know... it is heavier.
Of first let me say that 250Fs are faster than 125s. Period. No debates, no discussions, faster. The KX250F makes about 40 at Peak. Below and above it still leads most other 250Fs. A 125 makes what? 34 if you're lucky, I think the '12 SX125 was a little over 34.
Since the 250f FOOPER is SO MUCH HEAVIER than a 125 - about 35 Farty Lbs. heavier - they NEED that extra peak horsepower just to have a chance... Kind of like how if you watch Fat People on a leg press machine, they can leg press a little more than skinny people... but they can't win a race up the stairs!
I love Nate Page's video. This kid get's passed by two other guys on 2 strokes, while all the foopers, even dual injected foopers, fall way, far behind.... so far in fact, that you can hardly hear their forlorn farty sound until they're being lapped... Broome is a Scary track with huge uphills, so it's easy to understand how the 4 stroke riders on their farty bikes were having a hard time up all the hills.
It doesn't help at all to have about 1/6th more peak power when you also weigh 1/6th more, and furthermore, you need that power because of being such a fatass, or you'd be completely pathetic!
That's probably why a lot of the fast kids at Broome Tioga have started to call 250 fourstonks "Foo-Fifties!
I rode my YZ250 for the first time in a couple of months today. I leaned it over in a corner and just about fell flat, it was much heavier than the 125 and thats two stroke v two stroke and only about 10-20 pounds heavier. 250Fs feel like a buffalo that just spent the last 20 minutes with a taser on its wang in the corners, so I can't imagine how a 450 would feel.
A YZ250 is really light feeling and flickable. There's not really much difference in feel between it and the 125 except that you have so much more power on tap. A Foo-Fifty feels like Miss Piggy after a trip to Krispy Kreme on someone else's debit card in the corners, so I can't imagine what a FourFoopty must feel like even if there was a 4 stroke troll on board, pretending to be into two strokes on a twostroke board, while always trying to hype Foopers.Steve Lamson showed what a 125 can do when he whipped everybody at the MXdN... But most people aren't that capable or lack the will to shred on a 125. Your example is a great one ST.Yeah thx NDG. Most passes are made coming into corners, through the corner and exiting corners. Practice in sand or loam, it,s soft if ya hit the ground pushing your skill limit. You should be on the gas,when the 4-st. are off the gas, hard on the brakes with the bike uprite, then dive inside or outside to inside, take the 4-st line on the exit. Depending on the corner, there,s many more options. The gforces in some corners-warning is addicting
Agreed.
To the bloke who was having trouble on his RM125 and loved his brothers RMZ250, give your 125 time. At first the hardest part of a 125 for me was multitasking between clutching and the corner itself. After a certain point the corner will become second nature and after a later point both will be a second nature. Its at that point you can focus on going faster and faster until you're tearing your brother a new one on the track.
This is a good point! There are definitely people and places that are suited to 4 stonks. As far as people go, some are 4 stonkers right from the beginning. When most of us started riding, there were probably some people at the local riding areas we looked up to becasue they were the fastest... They were the "Badass" guys who raced, won, and had the fastest, baddest bikes. CRs, KXs, YZs. Fast intimidating bikes, too much for a beginner... Bringing up the other end of the spectrum, every neighborhood usually has one kid who couldn't really ever ride BMX, wasn't ever allowed on a skateboard, etc... That kid would always have a 4 stroke if he rode dirtbikes at all, because it's a perfect fit. The smooth, unintimidating power is just right to putt around on. The bike never feels like it's "In a hurry" the way a 2 stroke does with it's impatient charge through each gear, so it won't get out of control with a more timid rider on board. You can relax on a Fooper and just putt around. The bike will not urge you on constantly the way a 2 stroke will, always feeling like it wants to charge and run wide open. True, this makes the 4 stonk feel dead and bloated by comparison, but if that's what you want or need so that you won't be intimidated, hey that's fine with Big Gay Al...
As far as Places that are more suited to a four stonk, there's the recycling center where you can bring scrap metal and they weigh it in and give you cash. Becasue the 4 stonks are about 1/6th heavier than the 2 strokes that are allowed to compete against them, they will get you more money if you want to just hammer them apart with a sledge hammer and take'em to the dump. Plus, becasue they break down in a catastrophic manner, and much more often, the opportunity to hammer them apart with a sledge hammer and take them to the dump comes sooner and/or much more frequently. You get way more chances to take your bike to the Dump and get some cash with a four stonk than you do with a pesky 2 stoke that just keeps starting and running without problems for Years...
Showing videos from a track day doesn't make either faster, it makes the riders either better than eachother or worse.
In pure numbers, the 250F is faster. For example the 2013 KX250F is at a claimed weight of 106.2 kgs dry and a peak horsepower of over 40 this year I reckon. Thats alot heavier than the 90 something kg 150 sx which has a peak horsepower of 38, at PEAK because KTM didn't make any engine revisions this year (Damn it, an extra 2 horsepower would've been awesome). You cannot possible hope to claim that in the peak of their power that the 150 will hang on with the 250F.
On the track the gap will be even more severe because the difficulty of keeping the 150 on the pipe. Where it makes up for it on the track is under braking, and its unique ability to take sharp lines. But all that is irrelevant consider this argument is based around pure power.
Numbers for numbers the 250F pulls away. Of course if the rider of a 125/150 is well practised enough and knows how to use it to the fullest, chances are that 250F is going to be fooping its way across the line after the 150.
At an amateur level, if the 250F wasn't faster, wouldn't most fools have preferred to keep their costs down while racing? I know alot of guys that only ride a fooper to stay competitive.
Post by: cnrcpla on October 23, 2012, 11:57:36 PM
Post by: gpnewhouse7 on October 24, 2012, 12:55:41 AM
Post by: Stusmoke on October 24, 2012, 02:44:38 AM
Sorry stusmoke I was on my phone earlier and read it as that suzukits said that.
No worries mate, I probably didn't word it very well.
We can argue over what bike is faster and what has more power all day, but motocross isn't a drag race strip. Top speed and max HP doesn't count for anything in MX, how fast you can get there does. Being heavier, a 4T has to work harder to get up as fast as a lighter 2T. That being said, most riders can NOT use every ounce of HP the bike has to offer, pros can. So if a 250f makes 40hp and 125 2T makes a little under, that isn't going to affect lap times for the average rider. What IS going to affect lap times are experience on either engine type, terrain/condition of the track, and a rider up to the task of hanging on to a 2T or lugging around a 4T. I'm not knocking the 4T, I just believe that racing should be fair, as in 250 vs 250 and whatnot.
Oh I completely agree, I was just saying that in pure numbers, the 250F is faster. Hell I lay waste to these 'new' 250Fs on my 01 Honda CR125 everytime I ride with them. I underbrake the sh** out of them and dive straight inside. I use every ounce of HP it has to offer usually, which unfortunately isn't a great deal but its a blast
Point being, if a rider can use the lightweight, supreme handling and underbraking abilities of the 125 to its fullest they will easily overcome the horsepower deficit.
Post by: shanes on October 24, 2012, 03:22:56 AM
i own a 2013 450 yes its great to ride but my SX250 is a lot more fun to throw around but it wears me out so fast as i dont ride enough and im an old bastard .
if you want to compare 2 stroke to 4 stoke fine but use the same cc bike at least , see which one comes out on top then ?? lets face it very few people can ride like the top pro's so for the mortals of the world the best value for money and the most fun equals a 2 stroke SIMPLE :-}}}
Post by: cnrcpla on October 24, 2012, 03:33:04 AM
Quote
oint being, if a rider can use the lightweight, supreme handling and underbraking abilities of the 125 to its fullest they will easily overcome the horsepower deficit.Yes, the whole point of my post was just that. It mostly comes down to the RIDER. I know someone who can whoop my a$$ on an 85, equally, I know a lot of people who can't stay in the front on a 450.
Post by: twosmoke595 on October 24, 2012, 03:33:24 AM
when it comes down to cold hard facts , so what if the 250 f is faster is has twice the cc so it should be , the 2 stroke is more fun to ride , it gives you a lot better feeling when you get it just perfect , the 2 stroke will also make you a much better and fitter rider , 4 strokes make you lazy and are easy to ride in comparison. 2 strokes a lot cheaper to repair and you can do it yourself in no time at all .
i own a 2013 450 yes its great to ride but my SX250 is a lot more fun to throw around but it wears me out so fast as i dont ride enough and im an old bastard .
if you want to compare 2 stroke to 4 stoke fine but use the same cc bike at least , see which one comes out on top then ?? lets face it very few people can ride like the top pro's so for the mortals of the world the best value for money and the most fun equals a 2 stroke SIMPLE :-}}}
in a perfect world it would be like this, being able to afford both and ride each as we please
Post by: motoman356 on October 24, 2012, 04:48:51 AM
To the bloke who was having trouble on his RM125 and loved his brothers RMZ250, give your 125 time. At first the hardest part of a 125 for me was multitasking between clutching and the corner itself. After a certain point the corner will become second nature and after a later point both will be a second nature. Its at that point you can focus on going faster and faster until you're tearing your brother a new one on the track.
dont get me wrong. i know itll take time. i used to ride an race regularly and have been mostly off the bike for the last few years. ive just got to settle and find a smooth rhythm
Post by: msmola2002 on October 24, 2012, 05:27:45 AM
That's probably why a lot of the fast kids at Broome Tioga have started to call 250 fourstonks "Foo-Fifties![/i][/b]
Really, they have? I'll have to ask all the fast kids in schoolboy since when they have been calling them that next time I am out there. But hey, all this arm swag, leg swag, steezy fo sheezy for days stuff, I can't keep track.
But just cause a kid is fast in schoolboy or whatever is not definitive proof that a 2 stroke is faster. That kid, on that day, was faster - and at that level there is going to be a big spread of skill.
The video you picked is of the 125 2 stroke class. 2 gate drops. 2nd drop included 250 BEGINNER. I know, cos I am in the video - I was there, and running beginner.
So it sure as hell is not an apples and apples comparison - 250 beginner vs the guy who came fifth in the 125 2 stroke (B/C) class? That proves more than anything it is the rider not the bike.
Results are here.
http://www.cnymra.com/2011/results91811.htm
Hope this helps.
Post by: TMKIWI on October 24, 2012, 09:50:20 AM
Why is this still going.
Post by: gpnewhouse7 on October 24, 2012, 12:25:25 PM
I think a couple of people 2 pages back might have mentioned that it is the rider not the bike.
Why is this still going.
I have thought that myself
Post by: Stusmoke on October 25, 2012, 10:13:29 AM
But I agree, rider counts for more than bike at a local level
Post by: Suzuki TS250/185 on October 26, 2012, 02:23:08 PM
At the amateur levels, many of the riders are less skilled, so the Foo-Fifty four stroke fooper with it's boring, uneventful power and sleightly mushy acceleration caters to their needs perfectly. They don't have to worry about the intimidating suddeness and immediacy of the 2 stoke power, and they can poo around all day.
A four stroke does help the least skilled riders to poop successfully over some bumps where they might otherwise drop it, due to their lack of ability. The fumpers have definitely provided a learning platform for the lesser riders, and for wives and girlfriends who want to be able to just putt around without the bike constantly urging them forward into territory they might not be able to handle.
The four stroke's flat, boring power characteristics do have their place and they pair well with the girthsome and sluggish handling to produce a less intimidating package for beginners.
But people don't really care about that so that's why so many of them are piling up unsold at dealerships everywhere.
The lack of enthusiasm for the foopers in general might have something to do with people being smarter than the industry thought they'd be. Even though all the factories forced their "Visible Personalities" to switch off the real bikes and onto the foopers, people realize that the pro's will ride anything for a paycheck, and even say nice things about it for the money...
But, the fact that the two strokes dominated until the paychecks forced the last people off them reveals the reason why they had to be eliminated from pro racing completely by the industry via the paychecks.
They couldn't make the foopers look very good while they got gored by motorcycles half their size all the time.
Post by: gpnewhouse7 on October 26, 2012, 09:12:04 PM
Yeah, that's true. And DEFINITELY at the pro level, where the people have the talent to ride a 2 stroke and make the most of all it's advantages. That's probably the reason why as long as there were two strokes in the pro races, they either won or very nearly won.
At the amateur levels, many of the riders are less skilled, so the Foo-Fifty four stroke fooper with it's boring, uneventful power and sleightly mushy acceleration caters to their needs perfectly. They don't have to worry about the intimidating suddeness and immediacy of the 2 stoke power, and they can poo around all day.
A four stroke does help the least skilled riders to poop successfully over some bumps where they might otherwise drop it, due to their lack of ability. The fumpers have definitely provided a learning platform for the lesser riders, and for wives and girlfriends who want to be able to just putt around without the bike constantly urging them forward into territory they might not be able to handle.
The four stroke's flat, boring power characteristics do have their place and they pair well with the girthsome and sluggish handling to produce a less intimidating package for beginners.
But people don't really care about that so that's why so many of them are piling up unsold at dealerships everywhere.
The lack of enthusiasm for the foopers in general might have something to do with people being smarter than the industry thought they'd be. Even though all the factories forced their "Visible Personalities" to switch off the real bikes and onto the foopers, people realize that the pro's will ride anything for a paycheck, and even say nice things about it for the money...
But, the fact that the two strokes dominated until the paychecks forced the last people off them reveals the reason why they had to be eliminated from pro racing completely by the industry via the paychecks.
They couldn't make the foopers look very good while they got gored by motorcycles half their size all the time.
Have you ever been on an MODERN fourstroke?
The fourstrokes have come one hell of a long way since Doug Henry gave the YZF 400 its first win, it wasn't just the early years that it developed though, they've come even further since the release of fuel injection. They are not XR`s anymore. They are expensive to buy and rebuild YES, but slow? Definitely not.
Modern fuel injected 250f`s are fast, heck why do you think the AMA changed its mind and allowed 250 two strokes to race against them? If both bikes have equal riders on them the 125 gets smoked. End of discussion.
Post by: nom de guerre on October 26, 2012, 09:24:50 PM
Post by: Super Trucker on October 26, 2012, 09:25:09 PM
Post by: nom de guerre on October 26, 2012, 09:42:22 PM
Maybe a one off type of event in regions?
Post by: riffraff on October 26, 2012, 11:23:19 PM
So the AMA is letting 250 two strokes race against 250 four strokes? I haven't heard that yet, and what do they call it because the 250 class has 450 four strokes racing in it and the 125 class has 250 four strokes in it
Post by: cnrcpla on October 26, 2012, 11:41:49 PM
Quote
Off topic but does anyone think a mx series for 1983 to 2003 bikes would be popular ? Maybe break it down to 83 to 89, then 90 to 97, then 98 to 03. There,s a ton of 98 to 03 125 and 250,s sitting pretty much ready to race.I would line up at the gate if it was to be held.
Post by: luthier269 on October 27, 2012, 12:19:43 AM
Post by: Stusmoke on October 27, 2012, 10:05:50 AM
For a couple Years AMA amatuer rules alow 250 two-stroke 250 four stroke. But not in the pros.
If it were in the pros, KTM wouldn't have lost a single "lites" race since the rule cos they would've put their factory rider straight on the 250.
Yeah, that's true. And DEFINITELY at the pro level, where the people have the talent to ride a 2 stroke and make the most of all it's advantages. That's probably the reason why as long as there were two strokes in the pro races, they either won or very nearly won.
At the amateur levels, many of the riders are less skilled, so the Foo-Fifty four stroke fooper with it's boring, uneventful power and sleightly mushy acceleration caters to their needs perfectly. They don't have to worry about the intimidating suddeness and immediacy of the 2 stoke power, and they can poo around all day.
A four stroke does help the least skilled riders to poop successfully over some bumps where they might otherwise drop it, due to their lack of ability. The fumpers have definitely provided a learning platform for the lesser riders, and for wives and girlfriends who want to be able to just putt around without the bike constantly urging them forward into territory they might not be able to handle.
The four stroke's flat, boring power characteristics do have their place and they pair well with the girthsome and sluggish handling to produce a less intimidating package for beginners.
But people don't really care about that so that's why so many of them are piling up unsold at dealerships everywhere.
The lack of enthusiasm for the foopers in general might have something to do with people being smarter than the industry thought they'd be. Even though all the factories forced their "Visible Personalities" to switch off the real bikes and onto the foopers, people realize that the pro's will ride anything for a paycheck, and even say nice things about it for the money...
But, the fact that the two strokes dominated until the paychecks forced the last people off them reveals the reason why they had to be eliminated from pro racing completely by the industry via the paychecks.
They couldn't make the foopers look very good while they got gored by motorcycles half their size all the time.
I agree when you say that foopers have their place, that is for the people who just want to put around the track. But thats where an XR with the kickstand taken off should be used, not expensive ass, loud as christ motocross designed four strokes.
Post by: gpnewhouse7 on October 27, 2012, 11:29:35 AM
Modern fuel injected 250f`s are fast, heck why do you think the AMA changed its mind and allowed 250 two strokes to race against them? If both bikes have equal riders on them the 125 gets smoked. End of discussion.
So the AMA is letting 250 two strokes race against 250 four strokes? I haven't heard that yet, and what do they call it because the 250 class has 450 four strokes racing in it and the 125 class has 250 four strokes in it
Its just the amateur classes that they allow it because if they allowed the 250 smoker in pro lites then it would just be a KTM and Yamaha shootout. Atleast for the first year or so anyway.