Post by: citabjockey on September 09, 2012, 11:12:48 PM
The argument is over allowing the 150f honda in the 85 class. There are VERY strident voices on both sides of this. I can understand the guys that DON'T want the 150f's but I just don't understand how the other side says its a good thing (with a straight face and VERY serious tone). If these 150f's are great bikes, start a new class for them and be done with it. Then the folks that can afford them can race them.
Anyway, its in interesting read.
Post by: gpnewhouse7 on September 09, 2012, 11:20:13 PM
Post by: citabjockey on September 09, 2012, 11:41:58 PM
I dont see how the 150f posses any threat to the 85 as the kids who race in that class will ot be able to throw it round as much as an 85 but the extra power will make up for that in other parts of the track, they race them together around here and usually the smaller kids will ride 85s and the bigger kids ride 150f's. The two bikes are surprisingly evenly matched.
Post by: twosmoke595 on September 09, 2012, 11:45:47 PM
When Doug Henry won his first supercross on a yamaha 400 four stroke back in the day nobody though there was a threat by 2x sized four strokes. This is history repeating itself. There is no need for a 150 4T in that class. Given a few years development the 85's will not stand a chance anymore. The madness really should be stopped somewhere....I dont see how the 150f posses any threat to the 85 as the kids who race in that class will ot be able to throw it round as much as an 85 but the extra power will make up for that in other parts of the track, they race them together around here and usually the smaller kids will ride 85s and the bigger kids ride 150f's. The two bikes are surprisingly evenly matched.
exactly
the 400/426/450 and the 250f weren't meant to compete with the smaller 2 strokes, they were meant to replace them. which they did. And if this keeps up, we will see the same thing happen in this class. next thing you know honda will have a 90-100cc mini 4 stroke to compete with the 65's
Post by: gpnewhouse7 on September 10, 2012, 12:04:41 AM
Post by: Suzuki TS250/185 on September 10, 2012, 12:50:19 AM
Post by: citabjockey on September 10, 2012, 01:05:58 AM
Post by: Lolerbabop on September 10, 2012, 03:25:22 AM
Given a few years development the 85's will not stand a chance anymore.I'm just throwing this out there; I don't see how that would be a good thing for a kids bike.
Post by: citabjockey on September 10, 2012, 05:01:45 AM
Given a few years development the 85's will not stand a chance anymore.I'm just throwing this out there; I don't see how that would be a good thing for a kids bike.
Post by: TMKIWI on September 10, 2012, 06:18:07 AM
The 150F's were thrown out of our nationals a couple of years ago but there are still clubs and meetings that still allow them.
A guy I work with , his son is 1 of the top 11 year olds over here and we were talking about this just the other day.
While there is not much between the bikes when standard there is when money is spent.
A kid his son raced against a couple of weeks ago had $15k worth of Pro Circuit bits in the bike.
Thats just bullshit for a kids bikes.
For the record the 85's could not keep up with that particular 150 down the straight.
When that same kid has to race a 85 in the nationals he is average.
Check book racing for kids is just dumb.
If Honda want kids to ride their 150's they should start their own series or just piss off.
Post by: Stusmoke on September 10, 2012, 09:09:45 AM
NO NO NO NO NO NO NO.
The 150F's were thrown out of our nationals a couple of years ago but there are still clubs and meetings that still allow them.
A guy I work with , his son is 1 of the top 11 year olds over here and we were talking about this just the other day.
While there is not much between the bikes when standard there is when money is spent.
A kid his son raced against a couple of weeks ago had $15k worth of Pro Circuit bits in the bike.
Thats just bullshit for a kids bikes.
For the record the 85's could not keep up with that particular 150 down the straight.
When that same kid has to race a 85 in the nationals he is average.
Check book racing for kids is just dumb.
If Honda want kids to ride their 150's they should start their own series or just piss off.
Well said and its got my backing. How would it be fair to allow a 150F to compete with an 85? Easier to ride and more power, its the 125/250F debate all over again. Except this time, you're running a bike thats for a 10-16 year old give or take. 15k of parts is a ridiculous bill for a kids bike no matter who you are. But its not just money thats the problem its also how unfair it is to the other kids, how much heavier the bike is to kids who can barely lift their 85, the heat of the engine when it lands on them, all these factors that make it not only unfair to put a kid on a 150, not just even worse for the sport, but downright dangerous.
Post by: beaner on September 10, 2012, 02:45:36 PM
Post by: VintageBlueSmoke on September 10, 2012, 03:01:29 PM
That said, 3rd place in the race I watched was a kid on a KTM 65. He was just moving up to the 85 class and his bike blew up (used up 2 stroke) so he rode his 65 cc class bike.
I see what they are trying to do - come up with an equivellency formula for 2 and 4 strokes. Honda - a company who is embracing, if not leading the 4 stroke movement built a bike to the rules proclaimed by the AMA and FIM. I don't agree with it, but I understand it. I see no conspiracy here.
They still call it the 85cc class, don't they?
Post by: scooter042 on September 10, 2012, 03:12:38 PM
NO NO NO NO NO NO NO.
The 150F's were thrown out of our nationals a couple of years ago but there are still clubs and meetings that still allow them.
A guy I work with , his son is 1 of the top 11 year olds over here and we were talking about this just the other day.
While there is not much between the bikes when standard there is when money is spent.
A kid his son raced against a couple of weeks ago had $15k worth of Pro Circuit bits in the bike.
Thats just bullshit for a kids bikes.
For the record the 85's could not keep up with that particular 150 down the straight.
When that same kid has to race a 85 in the nationals he is average.
Check book racing for kids is just dumb.
If Honda want kids to ride their 150's they should start their own series or just piss off.
Well said and its got my backing. How would it be fair to allow a 150F to compete with an 85? Easier to ride and more power, its the 125/250F debate all over again. Except this time, you're running a bike thats for a 10-16 year old give or take. 15k of parts is a ridiculous bill for a kids bike no matter who you are. But its not just money thats the problem its also how unfair it is to the other kids, how much heavier the bike is to kids who can barely lift their 85, the heat of the engine when it lands on them, all these factors that make it not only unfair to put a kid on a 150, not just even worse for the sport, but downright dangerous.
Anyone with common sense can see what you are saying and agree, but million$ in marketing have a way of clouding the truth.
Someone should post the actual (not published) weights of the two bikes in question to go along with your last sentence. I am sure it would be enlightening.
The Honda site lists 234 POUNDS!? To me, this is reckless disregard for a child's safety. Nobody in their right mind would even consider putting a child on a 125 and they are LIGHTER than a 150f.
http://www.honda.com/newsandviews/article.aspx?id=6687-en
The KX85 lists at 152 pounds.
http://www.kawasaki.com/Products/Product-Specifications.aspx?scid=8&id=677
At 80 pounds difference, that is considerably more mass driving a kid into the ground in a crash. Would any parent put an 80 pound Gyro on their kid's bike and send them out on the track?
They would be better off putting them on a detuned 250F as a lighter, safer, cheaper to maintain option at 227 pounds.
http://www.honda.com/newsandviews/article.aspx?id=6699-en
Post by: eprovenzano on September 10, 2012, 03:44:21 PM
The 150 will do the same to the 85cc class that the 250F did to the 125cc class and the 450 did to the 250cc class. Yes I still see it as 125 and 250cc classes. Let the 450?s run in the open class. So far the other MFG?s haven?t jumped on the 150F bandwagon, and I hope they never do.
Post by: citabjockey on September 10, 2012, 05:44:20 PM
My biggest issue with the 150?s is that they are built even more on the edge than a 250F. What I mean by that is they are on the built to run on the ragged edge and can and will grenade. My biggest concern is this occuring at the most inopportune time. It?s as if safety be damned, win at all costs. If you want your child to truly to learn ?how? to race, to learn proper technique, keep him on an 85cc bike. An 85cc bike in the proper hand is an amazing bike. But if all dad is more worried about trophies and winning at all costs, (both $$$ and potential safety hazards) by all means put him on the 150.
The 150 will do the same to the 85cc class that the 250F did to the 125cc class and the 450 did to the 250cc class. Yes I still see it as 125 and 250cc classes. Let the 450?s run in the open class. So far the other MFG?s haven?t jumped on the 150F bandwagon, and I hope they never do.
Post by: chump6784 on September 11, 2012, 11:10:07 AM
The September 2010 issue of Australasian Dirt bike magazine had a shootout of the 85's/150. They got together a group of fast kids and let them loose on the bikes. The bikes were ridden in standard form. There were no technicians there to tweak the bikes, the kids rode them and said what they though about them
Honda CRF 150 - Fastest lap - 1:47.8 minutes
Weight - 84.9 kg
All the kids said it was easy to ride but as none of them were used to four strokes this may be why the lap time was down.
KTM 85 - Fastest lap - 1:45.5 minutes
Weight - 73.6 kg
Best bottom end motor in class that pulls well all the way through. Shock was soft for the big kids with forks feeling harsh. chassis also appeared a lot bigger than the other brands, especially for the little kids
Suzuki Rm 85 - Fastest lap - 1:45.5 minutes
Weight - 75.3 kg
Good bottom end and mid range, not as good as KTM, forks too soft for bigger riders
Yamaha YZ 85 - Fastest lap - 1:46.0 minutes
Weight - 76.9 kg
Bottom end and mid range was lacking but a strong top. Suspension too hard in the front for little guys, too soft in the back for the big guys. Rated best in tight turns.
KX 85 wasn't available for testing
Obviously the suspension would be tuned for the rider but stock for stock these are all in the ballpark of eachother
Post by: VintageBlueSmoke on September 11, 2012, 12:55:20 PM
NO NO NO NO NO NO NO.
The 150F's were thrown out of our nationals a couple of years ago but there are still clubs and meetings that still allow them.
A guy I work with , his son is 1 of the top 11 year olds over here and we were talking about this just the other day.
While there is not much between the bikes when standard there is when money is spent.
A kid his son raced against a couple of weeks ago had $15k worth of Pro Circuit bits in the bike.
Thats just bullshit for a kids bikes.
For the record the 85's could not keep up with that particular 150 down the straight.
When that same kid has to race a 85 in the nationals he is average.
Check book racing for kids is just dumb.
If Honda want kids to ride their 150's they should start their own series or just piss off.
Well said and its got my backing. How would it be fair to allow a 150F to compete with an 85? Easier to ride and more power, its the 125/250F debate all over again. Except this time, you're running a bike thats for a 10-16 year old give or take. 15k of parts is a ridiculous bill for a kids bike no matter who you are. But its not just money thats the problem its also how unfair it is to the other kids, how much heavier the bike is to kids who can barely lift their 85, the heat of the engine when it lands on them, all these factors that make it not only unfair to put a kid on a 150, not just even worse for the sport, but downright dangerous.
Anyone with common sense can see what you are saying and agree, but million$ in marketing have a way of clouding the truth.
Someone should post the actual (not published) weights of the two bikes in question to go along with your last sentence. I am sure it would be enlightening.
The Honda site lists 234 POUNDS!? To me, this is reckless disregard for a child's safety. Nobody in their right mind would even consider putting a child on a 125 and they are LIGHTER than a 150f.
http://www.honda.com/newsandviews/article.aspx?id=6687-en
The KX85 lists at 152 pounds.
http://www.kawasaki.com/Products/Product-Specifications.aspx?scid=8&id=677
At 80 pounds difference, that is considerably more mass driving a kid into the ground in a crash. Would any parent put an 80 pound Gyro on their kid's bike and send them out on the track?
They would be better off putting them on a detuned 250F as a lighter, safer, cheaper to maintain option at 227 pounds.
http://www.honda.com/newsandviews/article.aspx?id=6699-en
Good post scooter042! I knew it was a heavier bike than the 2-strokes but 80 pounds is crazy and heavier than a 250F!?!
Now comes the question as to who's data is correct? chump6784 posted from the ADB mag of an 11.3 kg difference (roughly a 25 lb).
Either way. My kid won't be on a 25lb heavier bike!
Post by: citabjockey on September 11, 2012, 03:23:07 PM
The September 2010 issue of Australasian Dirt bike magazine had a shootout of the 85's/150. They got together a group of fast kids and let them loose on the bikes. The bikes were ridden in standard form. There were no technicians there to tweak the bikes, the kids rode them and said what they though about them
Honda CRF 150 - Fastest lap - 1:47.8 minutes
Weight - 84.9 kg
All the kids said it was easy to ride but as none of them were used to four strokes this may be why the lap time was down.
KTM 85 - Fastest lap - 1:45.5 minutes
Weight - 73.6 kg
Best bottom end motor in class that pulls well all the way through. Shock was soft for the big kids with forks feeling harsh. chassis also appeared a lot bigger than the other brands, especially for the little kids
Suzuki Rm 85 - Fastest lap - 1:45.5 minutes
Weight - 75.3 kg
Good bottom end and mid range, not as good as KTM, forks too soft for bigger riders
Yamaha YZ 85 - Fastest lap - 1:46.0 minutes
Weight - 76.9 kg
Bottom end and mid range was lacking but a strong top. Suspension too hard in the front for little guys, too soft in the back for the big guys. Rated best in tight turns.
KX 85 wasn't available for testing
Obviously the suspension would be tuned for the rider but stock for stock these are all in the ballpark of eachother
Post by: SachsGS on September 11, 2012, 03:27:16 PM
Post by: citabjockey on September 11, 2012, 04:23:00 PM
1) Any class that is running two strokes, build a bike with a 2x engine size
2) convince the organizers/clubs directly or indirectly to allow said bike in the class.
3) profit
I think I know Honda's thinking - get them on a 4T from the start and keep the kiddies on the 4T$ right on up through the classes.
Post by: eprovenzano on September 11, 2012, 06:25:48 PM
I think its even simpler.
1) Any class that is running two strokes, build a bike with a 2x engine size
2) convince the organizers/clubs directly or indirectly to allow said bike in the class.
3) profit
EXACTLY!!! it's all about the bottom line, PROFIT.
Post by: Shawn36 on September 11, 2012, 08:09:09 PM
NO NO NO NO NO NO NO.
The 150F's were thrown out of our nationals a couple of years ago but there are still clubs and meetings that still allow them.
A guy I work with , his son is 1 of the top 11 year olds over here and we were talking about this just the other day.
While there is not much between the bikes when standard there is when money is spent.
A kid his son raced against a couple of weeks ago had $15k worth of Pro Circuit bits in the bike.
Thats just bullshit for a kids bikes.
For the record the 85's could not keep up with that particular 150 down the straight.
When that same kid has to race a 85 in the nationals he is average.
Check book racing for kids is just dumb.
If Honda want kids to ride their 150's they should start their own series or just piss off.
Well said and its got my backing. How would it be fair to allow a 150F to compete with an 85? Easier to ride and more power, its the 125/250F debate all over again. Except this time, you're running a bike thats for a 10-16 year old give or take. 15k of parts is a ridiculous bill for a kids bike no matter who you are. But its not just money thats the problem its also how unfair it is to the other kids, how much heavier the bike is to kids who can barely lift their 85, the heat of the engine when it lands on them, all these factors that make it not only unfair to put a kid on a 150, not just even worse for the sport, but downright dangerous.
Anyone with common sense can see what you are saying and agree, but million$ in marketing have a way of clouding the truth.
Someone should post the actual (not published) weights of the two bikes in question to go along with your last sentence. I am sure it would be enlightening.
The Honda site lists 234 POUNDS!? To me, this is reckless disregard for a child's safety. Nobody in their right mind would even consider putting a child on a 125 and they are LIGHTER than a 150f.
http://www.honda.com/newsandviews/article.aspx?id=6687-en
The KX85 lists at 152 pounds.
http://www.kawasaki.com/Products/Product-Specifications.aspx?scid=8&id=677
At 80 pounds difference, that is considerably more mass driving a kid into the ground in a crash. Would any parent put an 80 pound Gyro on their kid's bike and send them out on the track?
They would be better off putting them on a detuned 250F as a lighter, safer, cheaper to maintain option at 227 pounds.
http://www.honda.com/newsandviews/article.aspx?id=6699-en
The website obviously lists the weight for a 450 on accident. The actual wet weight of the newest CRF150s is 170lbs.
Post by: SachsGS on September 11, 2012, 11:56:21 PM
Post by: bearorso on September 12, 2012, 06:52:31 AM
The posts for the inclusion of the 150Fs with 85s, are largely from (1) bloke wanting them in because his boy apparently rides a 150F better than he can ride an 85 2t. Well, "come in spinner"
. Others, well, obviously wanting the same BS as has happened with the Pro full sized bikes classes.And Honda, wanting Exactly the same thing - a class handicapped for bigger 4ts. They had the opportunity to use the existing 125 4t capacity allowed against the 85s, and didn't do it. **** them with a barbed wire wound implement. "All 4ts, all the Time", bugger that. Though, I'd say the same thing if applied to 2ts. I look (perhaps unrealistically) to hearing both types out on the track - both the same max capacities, both pinning it. The World would be put to rights, at last.
No - the CRF150R, Is Not 80+lbs heavier than an 85 - it's roughly 30 /35lbs heavier. A 150f, two valve foo foo Honda, sure is probably the 80+ lb heavier 150.
Post by: Stusmoke on September 12, 2012, 08:19:13 AM
I think its even simpler.
1) Any class that is running two strokes, build a bike with a 2x engine size
2) convince the organizers/clubs directly or indirectly to allow said bike in the class.
3) profit
EXACTLY!!! it's all about the bottom line, PROFIT.
Agreed
The September 2010 issue of Australasian Dirt bike magazine had a shootout of the 85's/150. They got together a group of fast kids and let them loose on the bikes. The bikes were ridden in standard form. There were no technicians there to tweak the bikes, the kids rode them and said what they though about them
Honda CRF 150 - Fastest lap - 1:47.8 minutes
Weight - 84.9 kg
All the kids said it was easy to ride but as none of them were used to four strokes this may be why the lap time was down.
KTM 85 - Fastest lap - 1:45.5 minutes
Weight - 73.6 kg
Best bottom end motor in class that pulls well all the way through. Shock was soft for the big kids with forks feeling harsh. chassis also appeared a lot bigger than the other brands, especially for the little kids
Suzuki Rm 85 - Fastest lap - 1:45.5 minutes
Weight - 75.3 kg
Good bottom end and mid range, not as good as KTM, forks too soft for bigger riders
Yamaha YZ 85 - Fastest lap - 1:46.0 minutes
Weight - 76.9 kg
Bottom end and mid range was lacking but a strong top. Suspension too hard in the front for little guys, too soft in the back for the big guys. Rated best in tight turns.
KX 85 wasn't available for testing
Obviously the suspension would be tuned for the rider but stock for stock these are all in the ballpark of eachother
11.3 Kgs PLUS the extra gyro effect is a disaster waiting to happen. Period.
As I wrote in that thread - a 150cc Minicycle, Minicycle BW class for 150s, of any type. Same for 85s.
The posts for the inclusion of the 150Fs with 85s, are largely from (1) bloke wanting them in because his boy apparently rides a 150F better than he can ride an 85 2t. Well, "come in spinner"
And Honda, wanting Exactly the same thing - a class handicapped for bigger 4ts. They had the opportunity to use the existing 125 4t capacity allowed against the 85s, and didn't do it. **** them with a barbed wire wound implement. "All 4ts, all the Time", bugger that. Though, I'd say the same thing if applied to 2ts. I look (perhaps unrealistically) to hearing both types out on the track - both the same max capacities, both pinning it. The World would be put to rights, at last.
No - the CRF150R, Is Not 80+lbs heavier than an 85 - it's roughly 30 /35lbs heavier. A 150f, two valve foo foo Honda, sure is probably the 80+ lb heavier 150.
Well said mate and its like everyone else is saying: its the 125 class all over again: double the capacity, half the effort for riding, quad-triple the profit (atleast)
Post by: TMKIWI on September 12, 2012, 08:34:55 AM
No - the CRF150R, Is Not 80+lbs heavier than an 85 - it's roughly 30 /35lbs heavier. A 150f, two valve foo foo Honda, sure is probably the 80+ lb heavier 150.
Yep the 150f is about 110Kg the R 85Kg.
2 very different beasts. the f is a xr125 with modern plastics. Not a bad bike for its purpose and is how 4 strokes should have stayed.
For those worried about a take over, the 150R has been around for a few years now and Honda must be on another big push to get it included. Thankfully so far there seems to be enough level headed people in the right places to have kept it out. Mostly.
Lets hope it stays that way. Also the other manufactors have said they are not interested in following suit.
Post by: Stusmoke on September 13, 2012, 06:38:38 AM
No - the CRF150R, Is Not 80+lbs heavier than an 85 - it's roughly 30 /35lbs heavier. A 150f, two valve foo foo Honda, sure is probably the 80+ lb heavier 150.
Yep the 150f is about 110Kg the R 85Kg.
2 very different beasts. the f is a xr125 with modern plastics. Not a bad bike for its purpose and is how 4 strokes should have stayed.
For those worried about a take over, the 150R has been around for a few years now and Honda must be on another big push to get it included. Thankfully so far there seems to be enough level headed people in the right places to have kept it out. Mostly.
Lets hope it stays that way. Also the other manufactors have said they are not interested in following suit.
They've only said that because its not really working out that well for Honda. If the 150f is allowed in the 85 classes by AMA rules I'll be willing to be the other big guns will put out their own recreation.
Post by: TMKIWI on September 13, 2012, 08:58:45 AM
They've only said that because its not really working out that well for Honda. If the 150f is allowed in the 85 classes by AMA rules I'll be willing to be the other big guns will put out their own recreation.
Yes and no stu.
Honda have been trying for 4-5 years to get the 150R into the 85 class and all along all the other manufactors have said they are not interested.
BUT if the powers that be do let it in I am sure the others may follow suit.
I think 1 of the reasons no one else is interested is they are making money for jam from the 85's as they have no developement costs with the bikes now and all the brands bikes are competitve against each other.
Why spend money developing a new bike when you make plenty from the bike you have.
Post by: VintageBlueSmoke on September 13, 2012, 10:10:25 AM
They've only said that because its not really working out that well for Honda. If the 150f is allowed in the 85 classes by AMA rules I'll be willing to be the other big guns will put out their own recreation.
Yes and no stu.
Honda have been trying for 4-5 years to get the 150R into the 85 class and all along all the other manufactors have said they are not interested.
BUT if the powers that be do let it in I am sure the others may follow suit.
I think 1 of the reasons no one else is interested is they are making money for jam from the 85's as they have no developement costs with the bikes now and all the brands bikes are competitve against each other.
Why spend money developing a new bike when you make plenty from the bike you have.
...that and you'd be surprised how SMALL the minicycle market is. In the '90's, I was shocked at just how few were sold. It really put into context and really made me understand why development was so limited. I'm sure nothing has changed (positively) in the market place.
Post by: matified on September 13, 2012, 03:25:24 PM
It has very little low end power and very similar top end style power. the pluses and minuses balance out. At races in the elevation, like powder mountain a few years ago we saw the two strokes dominate with holeshots and the top of the class was two strokes.
Post by: citabjockey on September 13, 2012, 04:06:02 PM
How do we contact decision makeing members of the AMA to make our voices heard?
I have seen it up close and personal, attended AMA congress on the issue, and they shot down Honda on the 150 in the 85 class. But all this fuss over nothing. The 150 does not have clear advantages over the 85, even modded, they both can run head to head. we see it all the time at our local events , even many kids that ran 150r have went back to the two strokes, lighter, easier to move around and maintain. the 150 engine really is more two stroke like than any other bigger four stroke.
It has very little low end power and very similar top end style power. the pluses and minuses balance out. At races in the elevation, like powder mountain a few years ago we saw the two strokes dominate with holeshots and the top of the class was two strokes.
Post by: VintageBlueSmoke on September 13, 2012, 05:17:22 PM
How do we contact decision makeing members of the AMA to make our voices heard?
You can't.
See the Nobby Clark AMHF hubub. Until the head is cut off, the sickness will remain.
Post by: chump6784 on September 13, 2012, 09:46:59 PM
We have had 150 vs 85 for a couple of years over here now and it seems the only kids that ride the 150 are the ones who's dad thinks they would be quicker on a 4 stroke or dad is a die hard honda fan. The quickest kids are on 2 strokes and its basically a split between yamaha and ktm depending on the dealer in the area
I agree that if/when Honda gets the 150 in the 85 class in the states they will then pull out all the stops and make it smash the competition. Right now they just have to wait and make it look like a fair fight. History repeating itself
Post by: Stusmoke on September 14, 2012, 02:04:36 AM
They've only said that because its not really working out that well for Honda. If the 150f is allowed in the 85 classes by AMA rules I'll be willing to be the other big guns will put out their own recreation.
Yes and no stu.
Honda have been trying for 4-5 years to get the 150R into the 85 class and all along all the other manufactors have said they are not interested.
BUT if the powers that be do let it in I am sure the others may follow suit.
I think 1 of the reasons no one else is interested is they are making money for jam from the 85's as they have no developement costs with the bikes now and all the brands bikes are competitve against each other.
Why spend money developing a new bike when you make plenty from the bike you have.
4-5 years? WOW is it that long? That went fast. I can remember desperately wanting one when they first came out... Maaaaaaan am I glad I didn't get that wish. But you do raise a good point in terms of the profit margin most companies make on the 85s.
With regards to people saying the 150s are on par with or slower than the 85s its the same thing as a 250 and a 450. Yeah, they can win, but at a local level it comes down to the rider alot more than it does the bike.
Post by: Coop on September 14, 2012, 01:55:17 PM
Post by: Stusmoke on September 15, 2012, 03:54:24 AM
I can't remember if it was last year (2011) or the year before but theyt had a special 150f race at the Steel City national. It was one of the boring races I've ever watched. I know those kids were racing and trying their best, but it was pretty awful to watch in my opinion.
Four stroke racing is horrible to watch in general. but there are a couple of fast kids at my track that ride the 150Fs.
Post by: eprovenzano on September 17, 2012, 02:48:33 PM
Four stroke racing is horrible to watch in general. but there are a couple of fast kids at my track that ride the 150Fs.
If those kids were on 85's while they may not be the fastest, they will "learn" how to ride a bike. They will learn proper technique, proper clutch and throttle control, and in the end will be the fastest rider with proper technique. In this instance I see dad teaching JR winning at all costs, is more important than learning / using proper technique, and proper riding style. Unfortunately this happens in more sports then riding motorcycles
Post by: Logan Dewey on September 18, 2012, 04:41:15 AM
Post by: twosmoke595 on September 18, 2012, 04:44:26 AM
I dont understand, 150f's are powerless woods bikes, how would those pose any threat to the 85's... 150R's on the other hand
for all intensive purposes, we're talking about the 150 4 stroke race bike lol NOT the 230 pound 150 mom bike
Post by: Logan Dewey on September 18, 2012, 02:36:30 PM
Oh he said 150f so it got me all confused haha!I dont understand, 150f's are powerless woods bikes, how would those pose any threat to the 85's... 150R's on the other hand
for all intensive purposes, we're talking about the 150 4 stroke race bike lol NOT the 230 pound 150 mom bike
Post by: Stusmoke on September 20, 2012, 10:43:41 AM
Oh he said 150f so it got me all confused haha!I dont understand, 150f's are powerless woods bikes, how would those pose any threat to the 85's... 150R's on the other hand
for all intensive purposes, we're talking about the 150 4 stroke race bike lol NOT the 230 pound 150 mom bike
My bad, sorry lol.
Four stroke racing is horrible to watch in general. but there are a couple of fast kids at my track that ride the 150Fs.
If those kids were on 85's while they may not be the fastest, they will "learn" how to ride a bike. They will learn proper technique, proper clutch and throttle control, and in the end will be the fastest rider with proper technique. In this instance I see dad teaching JR winning at all costs, is more important than learning / using proper technique, and proper riding style. Unfortunately this happens in more sports then riding motorcycles
I completely agree. Winning at all costs shouldn't even be the mindset at the highest level, it should always be: Go out there, give it your best and may the best rider win. Winning at all costs breeds dirty riding which is crap to watch. Winning at all costs is part of the reason we're sitting here discussing the four stroke propaganda crap that Honda pumps out.