Post by: ford832 on June 08, 2012, 12:50:59 PM
This is the kind of thing I hear on here all the time.Fwiw,I wish they'd update their plastic too,but then,I never liked it when it came out in 02.In my old age I do tend to be a form follows function type of guy-which is why I have one.
Anyway,having listened to the new euro tech and old Jap tech argument every month or so here-and never managing to see what was actually new tech from the Euro's other than plastic or colours,I found the new Dirt rider 125 shootout rather interesting.They said good and bad of everything,including the YZ,but given the "old tech" YZ is just stumbling along,marking time according to most,I'll hit a couple high points for interests sake.
According to Dirt Rider,the YZ has......
The most snap and ferocity off the bottom and picked up the best when coming off throttle.
Super crisp jetting.
The "get on it and go" bike of the comparison.
Best suspension
Tight feeling with proven reliability record.
Etc,etc
....and the most interesting to me- 6 pounds lighter than the next lightest bike.
The moral of the story is,the next time someone has the urge to blatt about the old tech YZ's,maybe you should try one first.
BTW,I'm not a Yamaha fanboy,I just try to see things as they are.If I was looking for a new 125,I know the Yamaha is the most logical choice but I'd have a hard time passing up the Husky-just because I like it.
Oh yeah,the YZ won the shootout.
Old technology rules mofo's! 
Post by: nom de guerre on June 08, 2012, 01:11:35 PM
Post by: ford832 on June 08, 2012, 01:41:05 PM
Post by: nom de guerre on June 08, 2012, 01:55:21 PM
Post by: metal_miracle on June 08, 2012, 02:38:13 PM
but paying twice the amount of money as a uses yz, and just getting new sticker.. Just isnt worth my money..
this is yamaha`s problem right now... people look for used yz instead of new. when design gets so stale
Post by: SachsGS on June 08, 2012, 03:52:44 PM
Post by: Super Trucker on June 08, 2012, 04:26:51 PM
Post by: Cheb44 on June 09, 2012, 10:15:14 PM
A company that is putting money into research and development into new two strokes
or
A company who raced for years and spent tons of money on r&d only to abandon a cause we believe in and lead to where we are today.
Sure the yz is a great bike but Yamaha has the power to bring it back strong but doesn't. What does that tell me? That they don't give a s**t about what we want. If you want a yz buy a used one, don't buy new. I find their bone they throw us insulting personally.
Post by: scotty dog on June 09, 2012, 10:47:45 PM
Bottom line who do you want to buy a bike from?Good point Cheb44, i believe Yamaha started this whole 4 stroke bullshit too, they would have spent a gazillion getting that backwards piece of crap 450 off the ground!! They should of left it and spent the money on the 2 stroke line up
A company that is putting money into research and development into new two strokes
or
A company who raced for years and spent tons of money on r&d only to abandon a cause we believe in and lead to where we are today.
Sure the yz is a great bike but Yamaha has the power to bring it back strong but doesn't. What does that tell me? That they don't give a s**t about what we want. If you want a yz buy a used one, don't buy new. I find their bone they throw us insulting personally.
Post by: ford832 on June 09, 2012, 11:36:53 PM
heres the thing about the yz. its a great bike and it has a good motor and susp package. but the problem is you can buy a used 06 for 2000, put new tires, top end, bars graphics, etc and still be under the cost of buying a brand new yz not counting tax, fees and reg.
by choosing a euro brand that perhaps needs minor tuning with sprokets and susp which would be bought for the yz anyways. you are telling manufacturers they need to continue to put r&d into the bike. if anything make some updates to more than just stickers.
dirt rider wasnt saying anythin special about the yz just that out of the box is was the most well rounded. it isnt the fastest that goes to the ktm.
honestly there test more seems like a first impression test. nothing was noted about correcting gearing, jetting, or changing springs and oil levels to see how they faired with minor tuning
Once again,I just don't know what to say.Where exactly is this R&D you talk about-examples please.Where are the Euros superior to the Yamaha?You say the Euros need tweaking but the YZ is ready right out the box-is that because of the euro R&D or is the R&D responsible for the 6 or more extra pounds or the lesser power or worse suspension?
According to Dirt rider,the Yamaha had the most power off the bottom,the KTM had the most top,it's a push.
If you can buy an 06 for two grand and still have the best 125 on the track-and save about 5 grand,that's a bad thing somehow?
So,If I go out to buy a TV,Microwave,Couch,Truck or whatever and the salesman says-ok,you will need to get it worked on first as it doesn't work as well as the other guys-but ck out the cool new exterior.Yeah,I'd be all over that
This mysterious,so far unexplained "R&D" aside,Yamaha still builds a complete 2t line(and is considered the best by most) and imports them to North America-unlike Suzuki,Honda and Kawasaki-no wonder some of you would like to boycott them.
If Yamaha's 2t line for '12 came with the new 4t plastic and a suspension or axle size tweak just to say they did something,half of you on here would go nuts about the awesome new Yamaha-that's actually rather sad.
Post by: ford832 on June 09, 2012, 11:52:02 PM
Bottom line who do you want to buy a bike from?
A company that is putting money into research and development into new two strokes
or
A company who raced for years and spent tons of money on r&d only to abandon a cause we believe in and lead to where we are today.
Sure the yz is a great bike but Yamaha has the power to bring it back strong but doesn't. What does that tell me? That they don't give a s**t about what we want. If you want a yz buy a used one, don't buy new. I find their bone they throw us insulting personally.
There's that R&D thing again.Details please.You can't just write something and assume because you did it's somehow true.
How did they abandon the cause?They import a complete line that is largely regarded to be the best in the industry.
So,let me see,they still import them,they're the best or at least pretty close to everything else out there,they're lighter,for the most part,faster,as cheap or cheaper,stand up as good or usually better and er...um...they've abandoned......um........Yeah,I'd be pissed of at getting thrown that kind of bone as well.
Honestly,some of you here really need to give your head a shake and disregard the rattle inside.New plastic may trip the trip the trigger of many of you younger types,but it hardly defines the machine,the technology behind it-nor the company that builds and imports it.
BTW,I still like the Husky but I fully realize the limitations of it and the work I'd have to put into it to get it right.
90% of the 125 market hasn't a clue what to do with the engine,suspension,gearing or anything else on their new bike and would be wayyyyyyy better off buying the YZ than one of the Euro's.I find it distressing that many on here would steer them the other way-and in so doing likely put them on a 4t after they got discouraged with what they'd bought.
Post by: Cheb44 on June 10, 2012, 12:12:54 AM
pfft for all I know Yamaha just had a bunch of left over 125s they are still getting rid of. Not likely I know that was tongue in cheek.
In all honesty until someone goes FI there aren't alot of big improvements to be made on any of the bikes.
Post by: SachsGS on June 10, 2012, 12:27:55 AM
As far as the BMW GSs are concerned,everybody complains about the price and then buys them anyway - just ask two friends of mine.The BMW 1000 is an overwhelming success where it counts,in the marketplace.
When you are reincarnated,I am certain you will speak fluent German and work on the 3 series assembly line.
Post by: Jeram on June 10, 2012, 12:58:55 AM
the KTM crank case design has changed 3-4 times since 2000
the KTMs were given a 6 speed gearbox in 2010
The KTMs were had their port timing revised and their transfer ports fixed in 2006 as they previously opened backwards
reed intakes have been upgraded from Vforce 3 to Vforce 4,
And Im sure many many other things have been altered in this period too, and thats just the engine!
other manufacturers are the same.
TM i beleive has gone from a mechanical PV to an electronic PV
their suspension has changed from ohlins to marzocchi (forced, not a choice)
port timing again revised
chassis went from steel to aluminium a few years ago
etc etc, thats just a few notable items off the top of my head
the exact same is apparent with husky gas gas and the others, just read the last 5 years of reviews...
Post by: motoman356 on June 10, 2012, 03:28:00 AM
if a model car or bike is not recieving any updates other than cosmetics how can i feel assured they are investing in the bike? all it tells me is they know people want the bike still and they can sell us the same stuff cuz were so desparate.
my point about the other bikes is 1) the bikes are tuned for europe not american taste. so if you make a small gearing change or send your susp off to have it tuned to your taste. which would be done anyways with most bikes yz125 or any other model produced. 2) the euro bikes are recieving updayes every year unlike the yamaha.
Post by: Jeram on June 10, 2012, 04:36:16 AM
you can buy a great condition second hand yz250
completely rebuild the bike
install professionally set up ohlins TTX suspension
slap on some 450F plastics
do some light porting where its needed and reshape the head etc
vforce reeds
lighter wheels etc
ud probably still have spare change left over from the cost of a new KTM.
itd probably go quicker too.
Post by: factoryX on June 10, 2012, 04:44:50 AM
Post by: chump6784 on June 10, 2012, 07:51:59 AM
basically the same story with the 125's.
also everyone has some experience with yz's. their build quality and reliability are well known. there are still a lot of people that are worried about buying european because of the stories of old of poor reliability and expensive parts. while this may no longer be the case reputations are hard to change.
i was talking to my mechanic about getting a new bike the other day and mentioned the 250sx. he said that really they are no better or faster than what i have and i would be much better rebuilding the motor on mine and saving the money as a ktm wasn't going to make me any faster.
I may be wrong here but i was also under the impression that KTM do a lot better job of the ports from the factory than other brands. I think it was the Dirt Rider comparison of the 150sx and the 250sxf and they said that the KTM guys there on the day said there was nothing to be gained from the 150 motor. You could change the pipe and that would change where the power was but everything else was done. Maybe that was untrue but if it is the case it means that it wouldn't be too hard to bring a yz up to the power of the sx. Add a reed block, pipe and porting and you have made up the 3 or so hp.
In sayin all that, my next bike will most likely be european as for the same money now you get a better bike and it will be supporting a company that supports 2 strokes, not just milks the cash from them
Post by: Suzuki TS250/185 on June 10, 2012, 10:41:55 AM
In spite of all the hype, it appears that the "Old Tech" RM 125 is just as good as the "Cutting Edge" KTM... maybe it's even a little better if race wins count for anything.
And by extension, the "Old Tech" or "BNG" [or whatever other diss term is chosen] is probably just fine too...
Post by: ford832 on June 10, 2012, 09:11:20 PM
Post by: 2T Institute on June 10, 2012, 10:17:13 PM
Another thing to note is how Suzuki's RM 125 Dominated the EMX 125 Series last year. Yes, it's true that sometimes you can just have a world beating rider who can win on anything... but what stood out last year alongside the champion's run was how the Suzukis fared in the races overall. The guys riding RM's did not appear to be disadvantaged in power, weight, suspension, geometry, or any other quality when compared to the KTM's running alongside them in the series.The post 05 RM 125 is a very good piece of kit, they have the best port layout and best PV. Have the best potential out of all the 125's. Love to get my hands on an engine.
In spite of all the hype, it appears that the "Old Tech" RM 125 is just as good as the "Cutting Edge" KTM... maybe it's even a little better if race wins count for anything.
And by extension, the "Old Tech" or "BNG" [or whatever other diss term is chosen] is probably just fine too...
Post by: ford832 on June 12, 2012, 01:03:09 AM
Ford I get it, the yz is a good bike. Even if you don't consider any R&D Yamaha is just toying with us. Your foolish if you think they are selling them to keep the 2 stroke alive. The only reason they are selling them, in my opinion (since this is all any of this is from all of us), is because they have the tooling and the space plus parts surplus to keep producing and making money on an already set up production run.
The euro's like em or not are actively coming out with new models and participating with keeping the 2 stroke alive. Its like the euros have the 2 stroke in ICU and Yamaha has put it into a nursing home. Sure the yz is still alive, but its slowly dying a dull life.
Good lord Cheb,I never said Yamaha was selling the YZ to keep the 2t alive-though in your last line you say the Euro's are.
Here's a little business edjumacation for you.Yamaha,KTM,TM,Husky want your money.None of the execs of any of these companies would give you the sweat off their collective bags if you were dying of thirst.They just want you to buy their products.
If Yamaha can get you to buy their bike without them putting in any more $$ than they have to-they will.It's called business-and,oddly enough,that's what all these companies are-businesses.It's far cheaper for the smaller companies to develop 2t than 4t's and there is a far stronger market for them off road than mx-which is why they do it.If KTM decided tomorrow that 2t's were about to be replaced by the hyper/solar drive,they'd stop building them-immediately.
Some people really need to get over this weird touchy-feely 2t love thing that some of the smaller companies supposedly have.They don't.They love money-the more the better and nothing else matters.
Back before the YZ400, Yamaha engineers pitched the idea to the execs and they were given a small budget to see if it was feasible.It turns out it was and Yamaha made gobs of $$ while all the other companies scrambled(and took a few years)to come out with their own.Do you suppose Yamaha made any money off that?
The 250f was different.Yamaha couldn't see that one happening so wouldn't assign any money to it.The engineer(who's name escapes me but you can google it) designed the engine in his spare time on his kitchen table.
After this,Yamaha agreed to a couple prototypes but had pretty much decided not to bother funding a production run when a few visiting American journalists were allowed a test ride-and reportedly went nuts and told Yamaha they should be importing them to the states.The result was a 5 yr head start on everyone else and the only bike in the 125 class that everyone wanted.That sounds like sound business to me-actually,an absolute coup and a corner on the market.
Yamaha wasn't trying to kill the 2t,any more than Honda was trying to kill the fourstroke back in the early 70's-they just want to sell products and make more $$-as they all do.None of them "love" your favorite bike or care about saving it either-if people want something else and there is no money to be made.
Post by: Stusmoke on June 13, 2012, 07:37:34 AM
Ford I get it, the yz is a good bike. Even if you don't consider any R&D Yamaha is just toying with us. Your foolish if you think they are selling them to keep the 2 stroke alive. The only reason they are selling them, in my opinion (since this is all any of this is from all of us), is because they have the tooling and the space plus parts surplus to keep producing and making money on an already set up production run.
The euro's like em or not are actively coming out with new models and participating with keeping the 2 stroke alive. Its like the euros have the 2 stroke in ICU and Yamaha has put it into a nursing home. Sure the yz is still alive, but its slowly dying a dull life.
Good lord Cheb,I never said Yamaha was selling the YZ to keep the 2t alive-though in your last line you say the Euro's are.
Here's a little business edjumacation for you.Yamaha,KTM,TM,Husky want your money.None of the execs of any of these companies would give you the sweat off their collective bags if you were dying of thirst.They just want you to buy their products.
If Yamaha can get you to buy their bike without them putting in any more $$ than they have to-they will.It's called business-and,oddly enough,that's what all these companies are-businesses.It's far cheaper for the smaller companies to develop 2t than 4t's and there is a far stronger market for them off road than mx-which is why they do it.If KTM decided tomorrow that 2t's were about to be replaced by the hyper/solar drive,they'd stop building them-immediately.
Some people really need to get over this weird touchy-feely 2t love thing that some of the smaller companies supposedly have.They don't.They love money-the more the better and nothing else matters.
Back before the YZ400, Yamaha engineers pitched the idea to the execs and they were given a small budget to see if it was feasible.It turns out it was and Yamaha made gobs of $$ while all the other companies scrambled(and took a few years)to come out with their own.Do you suppose Yamaha made any money off that?
The 250f was different.Yamaha couldn't see that one happening so wouldn't assign any money to it.The engineer(who's name escapes me but you can google it) designed the engine in his spare time on his kitchen table.
After this,Yamaha agreed to a couple prototypes but had pretty much decided not to bother funding a production run when a few visiting American journalists were allowed a test ride-and reportedly went nuts and told Yamaha they should be importing them to the states.The result was a 5 yr head start on everyone else and the only bike in the 125 class that everyone wanted.That sounds like sound business to me-actually,an absolute coup and a corner on the market.
Yamaha wasn't trying to kill the 2t,any more than Honda was trying to kill the fourstroke back in the early 70's-they just want to sell products and make more $$-as they all do.None of them "love" your favorite bike or care about saving it either-if people want something else and there is no money to be made.
Well said. And to you're previous post which involved something along the lines of: I wonder how many people presenting their opinions on the bikes in question have actually extensively worked on them". No is the answer for me, I haven't. I'm just formulating my own opinion based on the technical specifications and things that sometimes change.
I do think that sometimes people hear that the FMF owner loves two strokes and they really take that to heart. Heres a question for you: Telstra (an Australian telecommunications company) has contracts for both the Apple Iphone and the Samsung competitor (even though its blowing it away, lets not go there). But they advertise them both? strange... Why? Cos they wanna sell the bastards. Half of the guys in the shop will say they love Iphones when they may very well hate them. Its just business. My point here is basically what ford said: Just cos a company appears and says they love something doesn't mean they really do. They love whatever earns them money and will advertise it to the nth degree. If hardly anyone and I mean about 1000 people in each country bought a four stroke motocross bike for a couple of years in a row, but KTM sold hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of 2 stroke mxers, you can bet your bottom dollar that all the companies even honda would start producing two strokes again in a flash
Post by: Jeram on June 13, 2012, 11:54:42 AM
Ford I get it, the yz is a good bike. Even if you don't consider any R&D Yamaha is just toying with us. Your foolish if you think they are selling them to keep the 2 stroke alive. The only reason they are selling them, in my opinion (since this is all any of this is from all of us), is because they have the tooling and the space plus parts surplus to keep producing and making money on an already set up production run.
The euro's like em or not are actively coming out with new models and participating with keeping the 2 stroke alive. Its like the euros have the 2 stroke in ICU and Yamaha has put it into a nursing home. Sure the yz is still alive, but its slowly dying a dull life.
Good lord Cheb,I never said Yamaha was selling the YZ to keep the 2t alive-though in your last line you say the Euro's are.
Here's a little business edjumacation for you.Yamaha,KTM,TM,Husky want your money.None of the execs of any of these companies would give you the sweat off their collective bags if you were dying of thirst.They just want you to buy their products.
If Yamaha can get you to buy their bike without them putting in any more $$ than they have to-they will.It's called business-and,oddly enough,that's what all these companies are-businesses.It's far cheaper for the smaller companies to develop 2t than 4t's and there is a far stronger market for them off road than mx-which is why they do it.If KTM decided tomorrow that 2t's were about to be replaced by the hyper/solar drive,they'd stop building them-immediately.
Some people really need to get over this weird touchy-feely 2t love thing that some of the smaller companies supposedly have.They don't.They love money-the more the better and nothing else matters.
Back before the YZ400, Yamaha engineers pitched the idea to the execs and they were given a small budget to see if it was feasible.It turns out it was and Yamaha made gobs of $$ while all the other companies scrambled(and took a few years)to come out with their own.Do you suppose Yamaha made any money off that?
The 250f was different.Yamaha couldn't see that one happening so wouldn't assign any money to it.The engineer(who's name escapes me but you can google it) designed the engine in his spare time on his kitchen table.
After this,Yamaha agreed to a couple prototypes but had pretty much decided not to bother funding a production run when a few visiting American journalists were allowed a test ride-and reportedly went nuts and told Yamaha they should be importing them to the states.The result was a 5 yr head start on everyone else and the only bike in the 125 class that everyone wanted.That sounds like sound business to me-actually,an absolute coup and a corner on the market.
Yamaha wasn't trying to kill the 2t,any more than Honda was trying to kill the fourstroke back in the early 70's-they just want to sell products and make more $$-as they all do.None of them "love" your favorite bike or care about saving it either-if people want something else and there is no money to be made.
not a bad post.
I think honda is the exception to the rule through.
Their company values are still heavily influenced by the companies founder
Post by: SachsGS on June 13, 2012, 03:01:25 PM
Start off with a lot of money.
The owners of companies like TM and Gas Gas build motorcycles because they love motorcycles,period,end of story.If their sole motive was to generate profits they would have invested money in other capitalist ventures that offer a greater return for less effort expended,at less risk.All these small Euro concerns are run by enthusiasts who are crazy about the sport and the businesses are an extension of their passions.Senor Bulto,owner of Bultaco motorcycles,was usually found trail riding his motorcycles when he wasn't building them.
Yamaha,on the other hand,is a very large manufacturing concern beholden to it's shareholders,which is why we have the moldy old YZ125 and YZ250.
The YZ400 4T was designed on an engineer's kitchen table,not that 250 hand grenade.
Post by: ford832 on June 13, 2012, 10:17:40 PM
How does one make a little bit of money in the motorcycle industry?
Start off with a lot of money.
The owners of companies like TM and Gas Gas build motorcycles because they love motorcycles,period,end of story.If their sole motive was to generate profits they would have invested money in other capitalist ventures that offer a greater return for less effort expended,at less risk.All these small Euro concerns are run by enthusiasts who are crazy about the sport and the businesses are an extension of their passions.Senor Bulto,owner of Bultaco motorcycles,was usually found trail riding his motorcycles when he wasn't building them.
Yamaha,on the other hand,is a very large manufacturing concern beholden to it's shareholders,which is why we have the moldy old YZ125 and YZ250.
The YZ400 4T was designed on an engineer's kitchen table,not that 250 hand grenade.
Lol,my dealer was always fond of that first bit of wisdom.
I disagree with your last line though-here you go......
http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CFsQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fmotocrossactionmag.com%2FYamaha%2FNews%2FDesigner-Yoshhiharu-Nakayama-3937.aspx&ei=oVbaT8CPAqjy2QWU6oG6Bg&usg=AFQjCNEQf6SA0L51iAwXfkwNFaN6obRh2g&sig2=__EvFW09Miey5YQSZ-Bi_Q
I'd disagree with love over money theme of the euro's as well.Every business's first thought is to make money-otherwise they die.The reason for profit may be more profit or to feed the addiction,but the end result is the same.
There's no doubt that many of the smaller euro companies are likely more "enthusiasts" than many of the japanese though.
Did you ever see any vids or pics of any KTM employee ride day/celebrations?They're all hammered and doing stupid sh!t on their bikes.
Regarding the euro money making theme,Ossa and GasGas just announced a partial merger to become more "profitable"(ahem
).The interesting thing I'd see here is that Ossa already has a FI 2t,GasGas has many more resources than Ossa.I'm thinking maybe a FI 300 GasGas next year.
One more thing to consider,GasGas has ties to Yamaha as they continue to use a Yamaha engine in their 250f.Maybe some of that will get traded along.Things could get interesting for 2013.http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ca&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ara.cat%2Feconomia%2FGas_Gas-Ossa-trial_0_713928690.html
Post by: SachsGS on June 14, 2012, 02:58:13 AM
Many small business owners first thoughts are (myself included) "Hey this is fun!",the second thought is "Now how do I make a living at this?".
Derby is kaput,Honda has shut down Montesa production, I hope the Spanish motorcycle industry hangs in there.
Post by: Cheb44 on June 14, 2012, 03:07:48 AM
My point is exactly what you said, who wants my money? Yamaha, by making the 2 stroke still, at least seems interested in receiving my money, but I think that KTM, as an example, is trying much harder to get my "2 stroke loving" money. Last I checked this website was dedicated to trying to revamp and bring back the 2 stroke not drag it along cause it still makes some money for some.
Who's abandoned the 2 stroke the most? Yamaha or KTM?
BTW this is good healthy debate and not at all meant to be insulting, so please don't take it that way.