Post by: MX_Peter on April 09, 2012, 08:33:14 PM
Only the front plastics are missing 
Post by: Premixed on April 09, 2012, 09:18:15 PM
Hey, if you are "in" with the boys at KTM, tell them to submit the paperwork so that thing can be raced in the AMA Pro Nationals, otherwise it's just the world's coolest play bike.
Post by: cnrcpla on April 10, 2012, 01:13:56 AM
Post by: Premixed on April 10, 2012, 01:19:23 AM
I like the way the plastics look. They all just blend together nicely with the orange stripe. But cosmetics mean nothing unless its backed by some power
Like 7 more than a YZ, which is such a huge gap its made the YZ obsolete at this point.
Post by: eprovenzano on April 10, 2012, 01:03:36 PM
Hey, if you are "in" with the boys at KTM, tell them to submit the paperwork so that thing can be raced in the AMA Pro Nationals, otherwise it's just the world's coolest play bike.
Amen to that. Its time for KTM to step up to the plate on this issue.
Post by: Premixed on April 10, 2012, 01:07:24 PM
Hey, if you are "in" with the boys at KTM, tell them to submit the paperwork so that thing can be raced in the AMA Pro Nationals, otherwise it's just the world's coolest play bike.
Amen to that. Its time for KTM to step up to the plate on this issue.
It's blatantly obvious what they are doing. They don't want to compete against their own machinery. In all the enduro series, they made sure the two-stroke is legal, because they race it. They only care about submitting paperwork for their own team's sake, not the every-man. They day the paperwork gets submitted will be the day (before) Dungey shows up on a 250SX and that's not happening.
Post by: Jeram on April 10, 2012, 03:06:14 PM
why?
because if they was to happen people would stop buying KXF/YZF/CRF bullshit and KTM two stroke sales would skyrocket to never before seen levels.
they havnt filled out the paperwork because KTM is reeping from the 2T enthusiast argument of "mannnn, if it were allowed to race it would kick some serious ass"
if it weren't to kick arse as we all seem so confident about, KTM would be far worse off because their model range would then be relegated to "woods bike/enduro only" status.
Post by: Jeram on April 10, 2012, 03:09:02 PM
my money is still on the HUSKY for 2013 EFI... I wouldnt put real money on it, but Im reduced to clutching straws each year when they dont produce what the rumour mill predicts haha
PS: the same rumour mill that produces the KTM EFI stories is the same that produces the "250SX would kick the 450F" rumour !
Im just stirring the pot. no need to a full on argument fellas
Post by: Premixed on April 10, 2012, 03:29:38 PM
Post by: MikeD94 on April 10, 2012, 05:11:28 PM
So, you say it's a carb version. I'm not sure why some of you are so hung up on EFI. I don't want a heavier 250 2-stk. Let the 4-stk go the wrong way (gain weight) until they figure out how to make FI lighter then slap it on a 2-stk.
Post by: Premixed on April 10, 2012, 06:31:21 PM
Wait until they have an autolube type system injecting it directly into the bearings and a little onto the skirt, and the only thing that goes into the tank is fuel. Let them play with the fueling and ignition mapping to smooth the power out even further, and I think then you will see a revolution, and a very very quick one. But until then, I just don't see a bike like that getting it's foot in the door with the current pro rules.
Post by: ACMX on April 10, 2012, 06:41:47 PM
So far from the 2013 250sx, I see nothing to get excited about. I want to see some engine specs.
Post by: eprovenzano on April 10, 2012, 06:45:57 PM
If ktm thought they could destroy the competition with their 250SX they would have filed the paperwork and would be kicking arse right now.I agree? KTM 2 strokes sell with out any real marketing. The strokers are being marketed, especially the 350. If their 2 stroke would even come close to getting onto a podium, they'd have warehouses full of thumpers they could not sell. KTM dealers cannot keep the smokers in stock now, imagine what would happen if they raced in an SX or outdoor race
why?
because if they was to happen people would stop buying KXF/YZF/CRF bullshit and KTM two stroke sales would skyrocket to never before seen levels.
they havnt filled out the paperwork because KTM is reeping from the 2T enthusiast argument of "mannnn, if it were allowed to race it would kick some serious ass"
if it weren't to kick arse as we all seem so confident about, KTM would be far worse off because their model range would then be relegated to "woods bike/enduro only" status.
Post by: 2T4Me on April 10, 2012, 07:05:12 PM
Hey, if you are "in" with the boys at KTM, tell them to submit the paperwork so that thing can be raced in the AMA Pro Nationals, otherwise it's just the world's coolest play bike.
Amen to that. Its time for KTM to step up to the plate on this issue.
It's blatantly obvious what they are doing. They don't want to compete against their own machinery. In all the enduro series, they made sure the two-stroke is legal, because they race it. They only care about submitting paperwork for their own team's sake, not the every-man. They day the paperwork gets submitted will be the day (before) Dungey shows up on a 250SX and that's not happening.
I'll say it again We need a "new" promoter for MX and SX in the USA that allows real racing with 2 strokes!
Post by: Jeram on April 10, 2012, 10:49:11 PM
Post by: Jeram on April 10, 2012, 10:50:13 PM
The Ossa is already fuel injected. I am just waiting to see a moto version.
Im waiting to see an SMR version... Im holding my breath but dont know how long to hold for lol
Post by: Jeram on April 10, 2012, 10:54:03 PM
I can't see the pics...it's all "x". Bummer that it's blocked at work.
I'm not sure why some of you are so hung up on EFI.
An injected KTM 250SX should in theory have a 45mm+ throttle body without loosing low end fueling... thats why Im excited.
Post by: cnrcpla on April 10, 2012, 10:59:44 PM
But, I would reaaaalllyy like to see (ride one would be even better) an EFI two stroke. In my opinion. Others could have different reasons for their liking or disliking of the EFI...
Post by: Recovered on April 10, 2012, 11:41:17 PM
Post by: cnrcpla on April 10, 2012, 11:55:35 PM
Quote
EFI is not a step anywhere but sideways.How so? From what I have been reading it seems like a step forward... But like I said, I will still prefer to work on carbs because I think that they are simpler.
Post by: Recovered on April 11, 2012, 12:06:36 AM
QuoteEFI is not a step anywhere but sideways.How so? From what I have been reading it seems like a step forward... But like I said, I will still prefer to work on carbs because I think that they are simpler.
It's heavier. Carbs atomize fuel better. It has it's benefits, but not enough benefits, in my opinion, to re-tool a factory. The real step forward is in the lubrication department. That independent firm in Australia that has a patent on their design is doing the right thing. I wish a smaller manufacturer that uses someone elses engines would give them the contract for their engines. Or someone else would buy the technology. I just really do not thing this status-quo two-stroke design is going to make a comeback as it sits.
Post by: Jeram on April 11, 2012, 01:51:39 AM
QuoteEFI is not a step anywhere but sideways.How so? From what I have been reading it seems like a step forward... But like I said, I will still prefer to work on carbs because I think that they are simpler.
It's heavier. Carbs atomize fuel better. It has it's benefits, but not enough benefits, in my opinion, to re-tool a factory. The real step forward is in the lubrication department. That independent firm in Australia that has a patent on their design is doing the right thing. I wish a smaller manufacturer that uses someone elses engines would give them the contract for their engines. Or someone else would buy the technology. I just really do not thing this status-quo two-stroke design is going to make a comeback as it sits.
Dunno what all this talk about being heavier is, its just something that someone said and then everyone repeated blindly.
A throttle body is often more compact and lighter than a Carb of the equivelent size.
The fuel pump and Injection controller box weigh sweet F-ALL
The battery would already be on the bike if it was an E-START bike like most enduro 2T's are now.
This is the throttle body which was going to be put on the TSS500 before things went sour. Looks much lighter than a carb.
No need to re-tool a factory as KTM doesnt make their own carbies, Keihin does... there would be no reason why itd be any different with injectors.
Orbital engineering has done more to hinder progress than help it. Their patents on the technology are stopping manufacturers from producing it themselves unless they pay an astronomical price to licence the technology.
The short term future for injected 2T's is a mixture of transfer port injection (quasi DFI) for fuel economy in the bottom and mid range and then uses secondary injectors in the throttle body for the top end boost.
I believe this is how the OSSA may be set up.
Post by: factoryX on April 11, 2012, 02:02:54 AM
.
Post by: Recovered on April 11, 2012, 02:03:11 AM
It is FACT that the weight of the MX 4Ts all went up with the advent of EFI, due to the parts involved. Period. It's no coincidence that the lightest 4T motocrosser is the only carb'd model left. The YZ250F.
you can post a throttlebody all day long, but I think you are intelligent enough to know that this is only one part of the EFI system. Motocross bikes dont have batteries and E-starts. I'm sorry, but if you don't realize that an EFI system on a motocross bike weighs more than a stock motocross carb, then I can't help you. keyword being system. not just the throttlebody.
Post by: factoryX on April 11, 2012, 02:08:01 AM
Post by: Recovered on April 11, 2012, 02:10:20 AM
This is correct, but the total weight would be what? 1-5lbs? Oh noes..
So if i went to the gym, grabbed a 5lb donut weight off the rack, and taped it to your seat, you wouldn't care?
Post by: factoryX on April 11, 2012, 02:10:39 AM
Post by: factoryX on April 11, 2012, 02:16:21 AM
Post by: psychward26 on April 11, 2012, 02:20:06 AM
Post by: factoryX on April 11, 2012, 02:22:43 AM
Post by: Jeram on April 11, 2012, 03:31:20 AM
Repeat blindly?
It is FACT that the weight of the MX 4Ts all went up with the advent of EFI, due to the parts involved. Period. It's no coincidence that the lightest 4T motocrosser is the only carb'd model left. The YZ250F.
you can post a throttlebody all day long, but I think you are intelligent enough to know that this is only one part of the EFI system. Motocross bikes dont have batteries and E-starts. I'm sorry, but if you don't realize that an EFI system on a motocross bike weighs more than a stock motocross carb, then I can't help you. keyword being system. not just the throttlebody.
Absolute Rubbish.
Think about what youve just said for a minute and then respond by quantifying the weights of these componants to back up your claim. while keeping in mind that many of these items are already on a carbied bike (ECU, wiring harness, fuel hose, fuel filter etc etc)
The bellow image is a fuel injection kit that could be used on a 125 two stroke. if larger engine used then the weight would increase due to a larger throttle body and fuel pump.
Keeping in mind that E-Start two strokes which are the norm now already have a battery system, there is not much to an FI system.
Thus completely quashing the B.S claims that they weigh more.
and if your still concerned about weight, then just eat lest fast food and cut back on the cocacola, you'll find it to be far more effective than splitting hairs over a few hundred grams for the sake of slandering new technology.
Post by: twosmoke595 on April 11, 2012, 04:38:50 AM
EFI is not a step anywhere but sideways.
that's what i'm thinking as well, aside from the cleaner burning, the only reason 4's went to it is for throttle response, which 2 strokes already have great throttle response, whereas on a 4 there is a bit of a lag between cracking the throttle and you moving forward
Post by: GlennC on April 11, 2012, 06:20:14 AM
Repeat blindly?
It is FACT that the weight of the MX 4Ts all went up with the advent of EFI, due to the parts involved. Period. It's no coincidence that the lightest 4T motocrosser is the only carb'd model left. The YZ250F.
you can post a throttlebody all day long, but I think you are intelligent enough to know that this is only one part of the EFI system. Motocross bikes dont have batteries and E-starts. I'm sorry, but if you don't realize that an EFI system on a motocross bike weighs more than a stock motocross carb, then I can't help you. keyword being system. not just the throttlebody.
Absolute Rubbish.
Think about what youve just said for a minute and then respond by quantifying the weights of these componants to back up your claim. while keeping in mind that many of these items are already on a carbied bike (ECU, wiring harness, fuel hose, fuel filter etc etc)
The bellow image is a fuel injection kit that could be used on a 125 two stroke. if larger engine used then the weight would increase due to a larger throttle body and fuel pump.
Keeping in mind that E-Start two strokes which are the norm now already have a battery system, there is not much to an FI system.
Thus completely quashing the B.S claims that they weigh more.
and if your still concerned about weight, then just eat lest fast food and cut back on the cocacola, you'll find it to be far more effective than splitting hairs over a few hundred grams for the sake of slandering new technology.
Stop giving me a batery and starter. I dont want one on a race bike. New YZ250's and 250SX's do not have baterys or starters. they weigh 212 lbs.
Post by: Jeram on April 11, 2012, 06:27:38 AM
Repeat blindly?
It is FACT that the weight of the MX 4Ts all went up with the advent of EFI, due to the parts involved. Period. It's no coincidence that the lightest 4T motocrosser is the only carb'd model left. The YZ250F.
you can post a throttlebody all day long, but I think you are intelligent enough to know that this is only one part of the EFI system. Motocross bikes dont have batteries and E-starts. I'm sorry, but if you don't realize that an EFI system on a motocross bike weighs more than a stock motocross carb, then I can't help you. keyword being system. not just the throttlebody.
Absolute Rubbish.
Think about what youve just said for a minute and then respond by quantifying the weights of these componants to back up your claim. while keeping in mind that many of these items are already on a carbied bike (ECU, wiring harness, fuel hose, fuel filter etc etc)
The bellow image is a fuel injection kit that could be used on a 125 two stroke. if larger engine used then the weight would increase due to a larger throttle body and fuel pump.
Keeping in mind that E-Start two strokes which are the norm now already have a battery system, there is not much to an FI system.
Thus completely quashing the B.S claims that they weigh more.
and if your still concerned about weight, then just eat lest fast food and cut back on the cocacola, you'll find it to be far more effective than splitting hairs over a few hundred grams for the sake of slandering new technology.
Stop giving me a batery and starter. I dont want one on a race bike. New YZ250's and 250SX's do not have baterys or starters. they weigh 212 lbs.
thats definitely something to weigh up.
I dont particularly want electric start either, even for a road legal 2T
Post by: bearorso on April 11, 2012, 08:08:10 AM
In the pic Jeram put up, there's quite a few extra, small items, over a carb set up. I'd say there is a little bit more weight, than a carb, and fuel line, but, really, bugger all. Though, I have the feeling, that additions would be needed to the existing stator / ignition, and or a battery / condenser added? But, maybe not - I'm not particularly electronics literate, though I'll have to make an effort, sooner, rather than later.
Yep, Orbital have had stratified induction, by the balls, for years. They designed it, and perfected (well, it is ever changing ) it, so, they've a right to the patents, and licensing fees.
Athena's injector pointing 'up, into the combustion chamber', as I've written many times, is a beautifully elegant, simple way to DFI a 2t, using aspects of 2ts design, to reduce / eliminate the need for high pressures. That has been a big bug bear for 2t application. DFI, does not have to be in the, up till now, familiar / traditional, 'from above' format, well, not in a 2t, that's for sure.
The Ossas second injector, appears to be mounted much like the Athena set up. It's use of a case / inlet port / manifold mounted?, 1st injector, represents a very simple way of delivering oil to components that need oil. I'm sure, other designs will use different ways to do this - there are many, be it constant loss, as premixed bikes are, or simply routing oil through the mains, crank big end , little end (all, easily sealed) with perhaps a slight 'directed loss' to lube the cylinder / rings piston - though, of course, materials can be used that do not require lubrication from oil - fuel, can be all that's used, if anything.
Oil, is a relatively small part of the 2t pollution problem - unburnt fuel IS The Big Problem.
KTM, have consistently said, that their registrable bikes, will be the first 2ts to have "whatever" their solution they will use, to enable their 2ts pass the forthcoming Euro Emission rules. The MXers, are Not subject to the rules that 'on road vehicles ' are - but, they will eventually have it fitted.
2ts, if they are made as new engine modules, should not be any heavier - the 2t engines, currently in use, have had little effort put into them to make them lighter (barring the smaller top ends on KTMs). So, there is a bit of weight, that can be parred from the current 2t engines - with New engines.
Even without going for a lighter weight engine, with a YZ250 - just fitting the 4t swing arm, linkage, and, I think, shock, saves somewhere near 1.5 to 2.5 lbs. Purely, because, Yamaha have worked very hard, to reduce weight in the 250 F, and the 450Fs, whilst the YZ, has stayed the same, since 05 / 06.
So, DFI'd, EFi'd 2ts, really should not put any weight on. If they are done properly.
Far cleaner, far more fuel efficient - the 2 things 2ts , Have to become, to continue to exist.
Post by: Jeram on April 11, 2012, 08:17:44 AM
Post by: Premixed on April 11, 2012, 01:43:20 PM
Does this look like fast food and cocacola to you? I'll shoulder press a 125, EFI or carb.
Post by: cnrcpla on April 11, 2012, 02:50:33 PM
Post by: SachsGS on April 11, 2012, 03:18:56 PM
DI Ski Doo snowmobiles are laying waste to the competition in my area and I wonder if the same would happen if 2T dirt bikes embraced the same technology.
I once spoke to a guy who built hot rods about the switch from carbs to DI/EFI.He said "no big deal,same principle slightly different way of going about it" and this guy was in his 60's.
Post by: Jeram on April 11, 2012, 10:08:26 PM
So you are basing your whole argument on the fact that "enduro" bikes already have the battery, stator and heavy flywheel then. Gotcha. Pretty sure there is a motocross bike posted, and I am pretty sure that the table full of parts you posted weighs more than a carb. Unless they are made out of helium, and I don't know about it.
Does this look like fast food and cocacola to you? I'll shoulder press a 125, EFI or carb.
dont worry about the weight of EFI... your first and foremost concern should be removing that large, round, heavy mass that is attached to your back. It must be slowing you down heaps.
Post by: Marco810 on April 12, 2012, 05:16:48 AM
EFI is not a step anywhere but sideways.
that's what i'm thinking as well, aside from the cleaner burning, the only reason 4's went to it is for throttle response, which 2 strokes already have great throttle response, whereas on a 4 there is a bit of a lag between cracking the throttle and you moving forward
Its more of a vacuum issue. When running those high strung cams the low rpm vacuum goes to shit, making a carb less ideal
And the whole thing about weight wouldnt be much of a deal if you used lipo batteries. You could charge them before a run or settup a charging system
Post by: factoryX on April 12, 2012, 10:48:42 AM
Post by: VintageBlueSmoke on April 12, 2012, 12:16:50 PM
Weight: Yes, FI will require a battery - at least to start it. The injection system should be able to run off the stator so a normal wet battery might not be necessary. In fact, a capacitor might just do the trick. It might also require additional weight in the flywheel since power delivery will be more linear. I am guessing I am wrong there as I would think LESS weight would be necessary but I don't have direct experience here. One thing being overlooked is the fuel economy. When John Deer bought the patent for a DI 2 stroke 125, it had DOUBLED the fuel economy. Using that as a base line, instead of a 2+ gallon fuel tank, a DI bike could get away with a 1+ gallon fuel tank and saving over 7 lbs - making up for the battery. It would be a wash (The bike just has to go about 35 miles per tank or 40 minutes). More importantly, the weight could be redistributed lower since there has to be a fuel pump anyway (Bottom of the frame? Do away with a tank all together?) thus improving handling.
Complexity: This is a big issue and part of the argument that the current crop of 2T's, Dad can work on in the garage. Fact is, that with a little knowledge (and tools), the DI will be easier - but you will need to learn it (and have a laptop with the software package). That is a scary proposition, especially since many older folks have a fear of the computer. However, kids today are less inclined to fear technology and if a manufacturer wanted, they could make in connect via USB or even wirelessly (with no weight gain) and you could 'tune it' via your ipad/iphone (or equivalent smart phone or tablet). You could even do it on the fly! Then, someone will get tired of paying $500+ for the software or applet and write an Open Source version and then the price will come down to little or nothing.
Cost: Yep. Gonna cost more. The OEM's have to recoup their investment. However, as long as the Big 5 drag their feet, the little guys (TM, OSSA, Beta, Can-Am (I'm dreaming...), Maico (you are dreaming...), and even Husqvarna) can get the jump on them and take a share of the market. When the Big 5 do join in, they'll HAVE TO DO IT AT A LOWER PRICE POINT. No one will pay Boutique Brand prices for a Honda - ever. So in the long run, the cost will not be any greater. Yes, it might be more, but no more than a thumper.
OK, here's my OPINION.
FI is a great idea. One that needs to be explored and exploited. Not only will it open the doors to other modifications but also improve the aftermarket with better upgrades, modifications, software, and just might improve the one thing that is out of control: The Cost of ownership.
Post by: Premixed on April 12, 2012, 12:59:13 PM
EFI is not a step anywhere but sideways.
that's what i'm thinking as well, aside from the cleaner burning, the only reason 4's went to it is for throttle response, which 2 strokes already have great throttle response, whereas on a 4 there is a bit of a lag between cracking the throttle and you moving forward
Its more of a vacuum issue. When running those high strung cams the low rpm vacuum goes to shit, making a carb less ideal
And the whole thing about weight wouldnt be much of a deal if you used lipo batteries. You could charge them before a run or settup a charging system
That is due to lack of plenum volume. Motorcycles don't really have a manifold.
Post by: MetalMike1982 on April 12, 2012, 01:27:19 PM
So you are basing your whole argument on the fact that "enduro" bikes already have the battery, stator and heavy flywheel then. Gotcha. Pretty sure there is a motocross bike posted, and I am pretty sure that the table full of parts you posted weighs more than a carb. Unless they are made out of helium, and I don't know about it.
Does this look like fast food and cocacola to you? I'll shoulder press a 125, EFI or carb.
My burnout reps after my workouts consists of pushups with my 105lb girlfriend on my back . I just wear her like a backpack .
The though of needing a diag machine to ride my dirtbike scares me . I like fixing things with tools but I'm not downing the idea , I just dont want it .
Post by: Marco810 on April 12, 2012, 03:32:07 PM
EFI is not a step anywhere but sideways.
that's what i'm thinking as well, aside from the cleaner burning, the only reason 4's went to it is for throttle response, which 2 strokes already have great throttle response, whereas on a 4 there is a bit of a lag between cracking the throttle and you moving forward
Its more of a vacuum issue. When running those high strung cams the low rpm vacuum goes to ****, making a carb less ideal
And the whole thing about weight wouldnt be much of a deal if you used lipo batteries. You could charge them before a run or settup a charging system
That is due to lack of plenum volume. Motorcycles don't really have a manifold.
A camshaft with long duration lobes is going to have vacuum problems, plenum box or not. But yeah less plenum doesnt help either
I found myself arguing over 4strokes, i dont even like 4stroke
Post by: MXLord327 on April 12, 2012, 06:15:19 PM
Yeah, but the rough idle sounds sooooo cool!!!
Post by: Recovered on April 12, 2012, 06:59:05 PM
Post by: Super Trucker on April 14, 2012, 05:49:17 PM
Post by: chump6784 on April 14, 2012, 08:13:59 PM
As for weight, the 4 strokes gained about 5 pounds. Big deal
Post by: Marco810 on April 14, 2012, 10:16:13 PM
Post by: factoryX on April 14, 2012, 10:21:01 PM
Post by: TMKIWI on April 15, 2012, 12:22:48 AM
ETEC's can be rope started with no battery.
Post by: Jeram on April 15, 2012, 08:51:51 AM
I see about 30 potential problems with that injection kit. The sensors,you have to flash the ecu if ya do any mods, too many connections and fittings,etc. The 2-st is a simple reliable setup, don,t know why someone would screw that up, by installing a injection kit. Example sensor is weirding out, you drove 2.5 hours to ride and now your bike won,t start, I,m sure the dealerships would love the injection kit. Or your in 4th gear tapped out,on the jump face the fuel pump,sensor,ecu, 1 of the many fittings has a problem, game over. There,s enough risk with the carb, catch a rock from a 450,contact with a rider,then a big impact on a landing and your carb is knocked out of the boot.
you could also die getting out of bed... so you should just stay underneath the blankets