Two Stroke Motocross
Two Stroke Motocross Forum => General Two Stroke Talk => Topic started by: streaks383 on June 29, 2011, 09:16:59 AM
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I have a 2005 YZ-300 made by Eric Gorr, it is AMA compliant to race in the 450 class. At a recent CRA event I was told I was not allowed to race in the 450 class. I am a bit upset after spending the money to have this bike built to race in the 450 class and not being allowed to do so. Although I met the CC requirement, rule #38 states "The machine must remain in the class in which it was originally manufactured". I was upset about it but the promoters did what they thought was right and did not allow me to race in the 450 class. I spoke to Yamaha and they told me and sent an email to the CRA stating my bike was designed to compete in the 450 class.
Dear CRA,
I am sending this e-mail in response from a request from one of your participants.
In reviewing your rulebook: #38 The machine must remain in the class in which it was originally manufactured.
From 2003 to the present. A 450cc Four Stoke was designed to be raced against a 250cc 2-Strokes and that continues to be true today. Once these 4-Strokes started dominating events the market quickly shifted focus from 2-Stroke to 4-Stroke and that trend continues. However, we are one of the few Manufacturers that still produce both models and allow our customers to make the ultimate choice which one is best for them. We hope that you will review the rule and allow vehicles to participate in classes that they were originally manufactured to compete in as well as those vehicles that have been modified and or that their ccâ??s exceeds the classes, that it was originally manufactured. All of which will keep it fair to all your competitors
You may want to consider updating the rule to say: The machine must remain in the class in which it was originally manufactured unless the ccâ??s exceed the original class specifications. CRA reserves the right to place machine/rider in the appropriate class to ensure fair competition to all.
Regards,
Donnie Luce
Amateur MX/ ATV / Off-Road Coordinator
Yamaha Racing Division
6555 Katella Ave.
Cypress, CA 90630
714-761-7760 Office
With this being clarified by the manufacturer in my opinion I am in compliance with rule #38 and also the CC requirement. I asked the CRA via email 1 week ago and again today what I am not in compliance with and I am yet to get a response. Up to a week ago they very extremely prompt in replying to my emails. The last one I got stated "Waiting to hear from the people I sent the info to. I cannot make the decision". I don't understand what decision needs to be made if I am in compliance with the rules.
I have been out of racing for a couple years now and I was very excited to get back into it, only to find my local sanctioning body is not allowing me to race the class I want to and that I am in compliance with. I am trying to race 450C, I was forced to race in the 250C class in which I got 7th, so it is clear I am at the right skill level, fitness level and have the right bike to compete in the 450C class.
Am I looking at this wrong, can anyone see a different point of view I am overlooking? I am not asking you guys to play devils advocate here, but if you can see a flaw in my building a 300CC 2T to race the 450 class please give your opinion for me. I understand making 250 2Ts eligible for the 250 class in order to make them more appealing and make our sport more affordable. But if that was the intent why not allow a 250 2T eligible for both classes, or at least let me race my 300 in the 450 class.
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Here is the bike
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w281/Streaks383/DSC040712s-XL.jpg)
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nice bike,your right in my opinion
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You are dealing with complete local morons. They are giving you the shaft. Man, what idiots!
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First, you have to determine if CRA is conforming to the AMA rules or running their own "hybrid" rules. Either way, you have a conflicting rule, the way I see it.
The 2011 AMA Amateur Rule Book...
(http://www.americanmotorcyclist.com/Libraries/Racing_Documents/2011_AMA_Racing_Rules.sflb.ashx (http://www.americanmotorcyclist.com/Libraries/Racing_Documents/2011_AMA_Racing_Rules.sflb.ashx))
...does not have a "450 4-stroke class. It states in section 1.3.J.2 that the only displacement classes are: 125cc (122cc-125cc 2-stroke only), 250cc (122cc-250cc), Open (122cc-open). This means the only class you are eligible for is the Open class (or one of the age classes).
If it is a Pro/Am event, there are only 2 classes: 250 (122cc-250cc) & Open (122cc-open).
Only in AMA Pro Racing is there a 450 4-stroke class and then you wouldn't be a C rider (pro classes are not broken into ability classes). I can't get the AMA Professional rules link to come up but I seem to remember 2-strokes are limited to 250cc so your bike would be ineligible.
There is no mention of a "Rule #38 The machine must remain in the class in which it was originally manufactured."
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Like I said, they're idiots. There's no way they're using AMA Pro Rulebooks. Either way, a 250 2-stroke is only meant for the 450 class, since this is what it was designed for, regardless if it's 300cc. A 250 would be eligible for the 250F class if amatuer rules were allowed, but this is not the class it was originally intended for. If Yamaha is involved, then I'm pretty sure they would be briefed on the rules for the local racing CRA. Of course when you deal with bozos, they don't understand logic and common sense.
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I agree, complete idiots. You must be able to pull some massive holeshots against 250f's though!!!
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First, you have to determine if CRA is conforming to the AMA rules or running their own "hybrid" rules. Either way, you have a conflicting rule, the way I see it.
The 2011 AMA Amateur Rule Book...
(http://www.americanmotorcyclist.com/Libraries/Racing_Documents/2011_AMA_Racing_Rules.sflb.ashx (http://www.americanmotorcyclist.com/Libraries/Racing_Documents/2011_AMA_Racing_Rules.sflb.ashx))
...does not have a "450 4-stroke class. It states in section 1.3.J.2 that the only displacement classes are: 125cc (122cc-125cc 2-stroke only), 250cc (122cc-250cc), Open (122cc-open). This means the only class you are eligible for is the Open class (or one of the age classes).
If it is a Pro/Am event, there are only 2 classes: 250 (122cc-250cc) & Open (122cc-open).
Only in AMA Pro Racing is there a 450 4-stroke class and then you wouldn't be a C rider (pro classes are not broken into ability classes). I can't get the AMA Professional rules link to come up but I seem to remember 2-strokes are limited to 250cc so your bike would be ineligible.
There is no mention of a "Rule #38 The machine must remain in the class in which it was originally manufactured."
The CRA is running their own rules www.racecra.org (http://www.racecra.org) I mentioned the AMA only because I am eligible to race my bike under a national sanction, but at my local sanction I can not.
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The 2011 AMA Pro Racing rule book is at:
http://www.amaproracing.com/assets/AMAPro-MX-2011-Rules.pdf (http://www.amaproracing.com/assets/AMAPro-MX-2011-Rules.pdf)
3.1 Engine Displacements
a. 250 Motocross Class: 0 â?? 125cc 2-Stroke / 150 â?? 250cc 4-stroke
b. 450 Motocross Class: 150 â?? 250cc 2-Stroke / 251 â?? 450cc 4-stroke
Again, no mention of "Rule #38 The machine must remain in the class in which it was originally manufactured." But the below talks of increasing cylinder bore:
3.3 Engines
d. Cylinder bore may be increased to achieve the displacement limit on motorcycles homologated for competition, provided that any kits or parts used to increase engine displacement (to the approved class
limit) must use items that have been approved by AMA Pro Racing.
e. Stroke must remain the same as the homologated model.
The CRA has their own rules posted here:
http://www.racecra.org/Portals/54/2011%20CRA%20Rule%20Book%20.pdf (http://www.racecra.org/Portals/54/2011%20CRA%20Rule%20Book%20.pdf)
38. The machine must remain in the class in which it was originally manufactured.
Motorcycle Classes:
2 Stroke .......................... 125cc - open
250B ......... 125cc-250cc Intermediate
250C ............... 125cc-250cc Beginner
450B ... 251cc-unlimited Intermediate
450C ......... 251cc-unlimited Beginner
Further more, it states:
The 250cc 2 stroke is NOT permitted in any 450cc class
Can't win this one. I would stay in the 250 class where you have an advantage or run the 2-stroke only class.
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The 2011 AMA Pro Racing rule book is at:
http://www.amaproracing.com/assets/AMAPro-MX-2011-Rules.pdf (http://www.amaproracing.com/assets/AMAPro-MX-2011-Rules.pdf)
3.1 Engine Displacements
a. 250 Motocross Class: 0 â?? 125cc 2-Stroke / 150 â?? 250cc 4-stroke
b. 450 Motocross Class: 150 â?? 250cc 2-Stroke / 251 â?? 450cc 4-stroke
Again, no mention of "Rule #38 The machine must remain in the class in which it was originally manufactured." But the below talks of increasing cylinder bore:
3.3 Engines
d. Cylinder bore may be increased to achieve the displacement limit on motorcycles homologated for competition, provided that any kits or parts used to increase engine displacement (to the approved class
limit) must use items that have been approved by AMA Pro Racing.
e. Stroke must remain the same as the homologated model.
The CRA has their own rules posted here:
http://www.racecra.org/Portals/54/2011%20CRA%20Rule%20Book%20.pdf (http://www.racecra.org/Portals/54/2011%20CRA%20Rule%20Book%20.pdf)
38. The machine must remain in the class in which it was originally manufactured.
Motorcycle Classes:
2 Stroke .......................... 125cc - open
250B ......... 125cc-250cc Intermediate
250C ............... 125cc-250cc Beginner
450B ... 251cc-unlimited Intermediate
450C ......... 251cc-unlimited Beginner
Further more, it states:
The 250cc 2 stroke is NOT permitted in any 450cc class
Can't win this one. I would stay in the 250 class where you have an advantage or run the 2-stroke only class.
I figure I have all the bases covered and can win this one, The 450 class is what my bike was manufactured to compete in per Yamaha, It is 300cc (295 actually) so it is not a 250cc 2 stroke, and it is above the 251cc for the class. What am I not in compliance with?
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I don't get it. What's wrong with racing the 250 class? Why do you have to say it's a 300cc? It says YZ250, race it like that. They'd have to do a teardown. Never seen one done. Is that cheating? Is a 450F against a 250cc cheating?
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Woah woah woah. His bike had a bigger advantage so they made him race the slower four stroke? That totally makes sense.
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I don't get it. What's wrong with racing the 250 class? Why do you have to say it's a 300cc? It says YZ250, race it like that. They'd have to do a teardown. Never seen one done. Is that cheating? Is a 450F against a 250cc cheating?
Nothing is wrong with the 250C class, they are nice kids. However they will also kill you for a trophy. They have more Kamakazi pilots than the WWII Japanese navy and race like they are Chad and Bubba chasing millions. I am 30 now and not fast enough for a vet class yet. I want to move there if I can find my speed. 450C here (for the most part) are guys like me, with similar skill levels who are out racing to have a good time. They have jobs to go to monday morning and they don't feel the need to knock each other down at every chance.
On the moral note, I know not everyone feels the same. I know I could get away with racing the 250 class, no one wants to post a $250 protest fee they may lose at a local 250C race. But I just don't have a warm and fuzzy about putting a 300cc 2T which has almost the BHP of a 450 against a 250f. Heck the stock 250 2T has 10 BHP over a 250f. Aside from that I spent the money to have the thing built for the 450 class. But mostly I don't want to be taken out, I am too old for that now, I do this for fun. If you beat me that means you were faster, hats off to you, I will have a beer with you and try to get you next time, but I will NOT go out of my way to knock you down. The 14-17 year old crowd does not really feel the same way.
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What a great attitude. Unless you are doing the racing for a living (and maybe even then) this is the way it should be approached. Hats off to you sir!
But mostly I don't want to be taken out, I am too old for that now, I do this for fun. If you beat me that means you were faster, hats off to you, I will have a beer with you and try to get you next time, but I will NOT go out of my way to knock you down. The 14-17 year old crowd does not really feel the same way.
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Well, that sucks. The CRA is worthless. I guess we all have a new enemy.
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Well, that sucks. The CRA is worthless. I guess we all have a new enemy.
I am definitely having an issue with the CRA right now, but I am not ready to call them an enemy. Here in NE Ohio I have seen the AMA and sanctioning body after sanctioning body pack up and leave the riders and the tracks high and dry. The CRA has never done that, year after year for as long as I can remember they have put on events for us. They have embraced H.S., MX, GP, Flat Track, if you can do it in the dirt they give you a place to ride, quads too with points to chase yada yada yada. I am not ready to hate them yet, but I am hoping going public with this will help them recognize this flawed rule and maybe change it or make some exceptions. Burn1986 I thank you very much for the support but I feel labeling the CRA the enemy would be bad for the riders, tracks and local businesses that cater to us. That being said, I have no problem calling them out and helping them to better themselves and create better events for all of us as a community. On a positive note, I did see about 25% 2T's out there racing!
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But mostly I don't want to be taken out, I am too old for that now, I do this for fun. If you beat me that means you were faster, hats off to you, I will have a beer with you and try to get you next time, but I will NOT go out of my way to knock you down. The 14-17 year old crowd does not really feel the same way.
Hey well I am 16, and most of my friends and I aren't trying to knock anyone down, we are just out there having fun and competing. The only time we make contact is usually by accident. But then again anyone who has ever been overly aggressive with me on the track I am not friends with anymore.
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But mostly I don't want to be taken out, I am too old for that now, I do this for fun. If you beat me that means you were faster, hats off to you, I will have a beer with you and try to get you next time, but I will NOT go out of my way to knock you down. The 14-17 year old crowd does not really feel the same way.
Hey well I am 16, and most of my friends and I aren't trying to knock anyone down, we are just out there having fun and competing. The only time we make contact is usually by accident. But then again anyone who has ever been overly aggressive with me on the track I am not friends with anymore.
ACMX, Not everyone is guilty of this so if I imagine I accused some good folks like you unjustly, sorry about that.
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No you are right streaks383.
Bloody teenagers. ;)
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I remember racing when I was in that age group. If I crashed an got hurt I got a couple days off school and if you were in my way and holding me up then watch out. Now that I have to go to work on Monday I don't push nearly as hard and try not to block pass people.
There is one guy tho who has bailed my wife up twice in the pits on a practice about her being too slow and she should ride off the side of the track so A graders like him can get around. She told him where to go, I told him where to go and the next session him and his bike went sailing over a berm. Looks like I have still got it after 9 years of not racing
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I remember racing when I was in that age group. If I crashed an got hurt I got a couple days off school and if you were in my way and holding me up then watch out. Now that I have to go to work on Monday I don't push nearly as hard and try not to block pass people.
There is one guy tho who has bailed my wife up twice in the pits on a practice about her being too slow and she should ride off the side of the track so A graders like him can get around. She told him where to go, I told him where to go and the next session him and his bike went sailing over a berm. Looks like I have still got it after 9 years of not racing
Thats the beautiful thing about it chump. For some reason when you have done this for a while and long out grown killing for a 4 dollar trophy you do get better at moves like that. It makes me smile when a-holes get put in their place, I am a sucker for good guys winning. I knew an a-hole of a points chaser, he pulled a couple of dirty moves on me and took me down once. I pretended like everything was cool, about a year later at a state championship race which he cared very much about he was leading for the better part of the race making himself really wide and difficult to pass. On the second to last lap the pack came around and he was no place to be found, came walking up the side of the track after the checkers waved. I took him a little wide out of a corner and he had no where to go besides pond the track used to get water from. I hear with those 4T's you can't just pull the spark plug, flip the bike upside down and turn it over if you drown it. Just glad he could swim. Although I have calmed down I still reserve the right to stand up for myself, I am sure you feel the same way.
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I'm not sure I'm ready to jump on the bandwagon of hating on the racing association. Not hating on ya, and cool you aren't wanting to cheat etc. but, most of us have been fighting to have the 250 2 stroke allowed in the 250 class. So my guess is, the 450 class is an open class, OEM 251cc and up? meaning 300XC, CR500AF etc would be allowed in that class? So, my point is, that I understand your frustration, but we have been trying to get those rules in place, and now everyone is ready to pounce on the association for going basically to how we want those rules. Again my point about racing the 250 class, and I understand your wanting to race safely, is that the racing association is allowing the 250 vs 250 rules. Please don't mess that up and get the 250 vs 450 rule put in their books. It will be a step back in my opinion. Yes, we'd like to see overbores allowed in your association, but sometimes when you push something, it will backfire for many others. JMHO. One other note. When you signed up, did you list it as a YZ300 or just a YZ250? If you got stickers made and listed it as a YZ300, you may not have any more issues.
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Well, that sucks. The CRA is worthless. I guess we all have a new enemy.
I am definitely having an issue with the CRA right now, but I am not ready to call them an enemy. Here in NE Ohio I have seen the AMA and sanctioning body after sanctioning body pack up and leave the riders and the tracks high and dry. The CRA has never done that, year after year for as long as I can remember they have put on events for us. They have embraced H.S., MX, GP, Flat Track, if you can do it in the dirt they give you a place to ride, quads too with points to chase yada yada yada. I am not ready to hate them yet, but I am hoping going public with this will help them recognize this flawed rule and maybe change it or make some exceptions. Burn1986 I thank you very much for the support but I feel labeling the CRA the enemy would be bad for the riders, tracks and local businesses that cater to us. That being said, I have no problem calling them out and helping them to better themselves and create better events for all of us as a community. On a positive note, I did see about 25% 2T's out there racing!
They're the enemy Dang it!!!! Don't let them deceive you!!!!!
Just kidding, ha.
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I'm not sure I'm ready to jump on the bandwagon of hating on the racing association. Not hating on ya, and cool you aren't wanting to cheat etc. but, most of us have been fighting to have the 250 2 stroke allowed in the 250 class. So my guess is, the 450 class is an open class, OEM 251cc and up? meaning 300XC, CR500AF etc would be allowed in that class? So, my point is, that I understand your frustration, but we have been trying to get those rules in place, and now everyone is ready to pounce on the association for going basically to how we want those rules. Again my point about racing the 250 class, and I understand your wanting to race safely, is that the racing association is allowing the 250 vs 250 rules. Please don't mess that up and get the 250 vs 450 rule put in their books. It will be a step back in my opinion. Yes, we'd like to see overbores allowed in your association, but sometimes when you push something, it will backfire for many others. JMHO. One other note. When you signed up, did you list it as a YZ300 or just a YZ250? If you got stickers made and listed it as a YZ300, you may not have any more issues.
Please don't jump on anything that would lead you to hate the CRA, they are great for our sport. They are not looking to take 250 2T's out of the 250 class at all, they are however, right now working on changing that vaguely worded rule #38 which is stopping over bores from racing the 450 class. Your past battles fought and their accomplishments are safe. I took this whole thing public when they stopped responding to my emails to maybe light a fire under them. It has lit one, on another forum, Pitracer.com we are finally making some progress and moving in a positive direction, part of the problem was misinformation. The promoter was under the assumption I wanted to race both class's when instead I just wanted to race 450 and not be made to race in 250. And no, I wrote YZ-250 not 300 on my entry slip, old habits you know. That was addressed also by the promoter and seems would have been helpful in determining the class which. But anyways communication lines are open and the promoters and myself are moving forward and I am confident they will make things right. Thanks
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I've always felt it better to infiltrate them and work from the inside out. If you don't like the rules you have 3 choices: Quit, conform, or work to get the rule changed. Now you can sit and bitch on the sidelines but if you really want it to be done and done right, you'll have to do it yourself. Get involved with the organization. Help at the tracks, or with scoring or with anything you can do. Run for a position on the team (office). Apply for the Official Rule Change in writing and in a professional manner before the start of the new season. There is usually an organizational meeting to hammer out the rules for the next year. Ensure you are in attendance. Doing all this will help ensure you get what you want.
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I've always felt it better to infiltrate them and work from the inside out. If you don't like the rules you have 3 choices: Quit, conform, or work to get the rule changed. Now you can sit and bitch on the sidelines but if you really want it to be done and done right, you'll have to do it yourself. Get involved with the organization. Help at the tracks, or with scoring or with anything you can do. Run for a position on the team (office). Apply for the Official Rule Change in writing and in a professional manner before the start of the new season. There is usually an organizational meeting to hammer out the rules for the next year. Ensure you are in attendance. Doing all this will help ensure you get what you want.
Your advice is sound and spoken like you have some experience with this, thanks for the input. I agree totally with your stance on how to change the rule, right now I need an exception so I can race. I actually am one of the guys who run a track under their sanction it's a non-profit track, we are having 14 of their events this year. I probably will ask to be a representative at the meeting this winter for the rule book. I have already submitted in writing weeks ago the request for mid-season review and exception to this case as rule #38 is vague, and not intended to stop this big bores from racing 450 class. The rule was resigned to stop 250T's from racing both. There was no progress being made, I took it public, which lit the fire. It was also beneficial to talk to the man who could get things done, directly on another forum. We were able to hammer out some specific details, clear up some assumptions and take it beyond the formal "to whom it may concern" letter. Things are moving forward right now in a constructive way and I am confident I will be racing again next weekend.
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Well I commend you streaks for keeping a level head. Heck, you have good communication with them. That sounds like half the battle. I don't know why they can't just make it equal displacements like the amatuers. It would make things a whole lot easier.
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thats so weird I know in ama you can race a 250f in the 450 class if i'm not mistaken
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Maybe that's what Andrew Short needs.
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thats so weird I know in ama you can race a 250f in the 450 class if i'm not mistaken
That is true for AMA but not for CRA. In this case, CRA in their rules made a conscious decision to not allow the 250cc 2T in any 450cc 4$ class. Furthermore, they have a class for 2T's separate from the thumpers. The fouled rule here is the rule "38. The machine must remain in the class in which it was originally manufactured." This seems to eliminate all over-bore and stroke options. In reading the rules, you really can see they took the time to think about it, make a conscious decision, and then write it into the rules. It wasn't just "Hey, that's what they do on TV".
Before we flame the organization too much. The rider in question should sit down with the policy makers and pick their brain to discover the reason behind adding these two lines into the 2011 rule book.
"38. The machine must remain in the class in which it was originally manufactured."
and
"The 250cc 2 stroke is NOT permitted in any 450cc class"
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thats so weird I know in ama you can race a 250f in the 450 class if i'm not mistaken
Before we flame the organization too much. The rider in question should sit down with the policy makers and pick their brain to discover the reason behind adding these two lines into the 2011 rule book.
"38. The machine must remain in the class in which it was originally manufactured."
and
"The 250cc 2 stroke is NOT permitted in any 450cc class"
The reasoning behind the rule was at one point a 250 2T was allowed to compete in both the 250 and 450 classes. A handful of the 450 riders complained it was unfair the 250 2T guys were able to compete in more classes than they were. As a result the CRA mandated 250 2T's were only allowed to race in the 250 class. This made the 450 riders happy, personally I think they were upset about getting beat by a 250 2T. I feel this rule could be better served if it made a 250 2T rider pick one class or the other to run in, or just let them run both. The CRA also combined the 250 A and 450 A into one class which I believe is called pro money. They really kind of shot the tracks foot with this stuff. Now the 250 2T guys who were signing up for 2 classes are only signing up for one and tracks are losing money. The same goes for only having one A class. Riders who were ready to move to the 250 A class (the beginner A class) are now staying in B also as a side effect. The overbore stuff for 2T's is really taking off and was not really big when this rule was made. Today's solutions tend to create tomorrows problems, this is what happened here.