Two Stroke Motocross
Two Stroke Motocross Forum => General Two Stroke Talk => Topic started by: burn1986 on April 29, 2011, 08:53:27 AM
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Well, the petition continues to rise - up to 4260!
However, the stiffness from the OEMS does to. Here's the latest reply from Al Ludington:
Sorry for the delayed reply. I've been somewhere racing every weekend. I just got back from the flat track race in Salinas and I'm off to Miller in a couple of days. No rest for the weary, etc. I'll have to tell you Mark, I'm not gaining much traction on my side of things. As attractive as the idea is, as much more economically feasible of a way to go racing as it is, and as logical as it seems on the surface I feel there are a lot of underlying issues going against us here.
It would probably not be in my best interests to outline what we are up against in an email but I know you're a clever guy and can read between the lines. The o.e.m 's have a strong voice and a lot of vested interests in our series. Until it makes sense to them I fear we will have a tough battle on our hands. Your proposal is sound and solid. Have you tried sending the petition to the various manufacturers and race teams? Maybe we need to work this from the bottom up.
Anyway, from my side I'll push it to Kevin, Davey, and the other involved parties when and where I can. Hopefully we will find an open window of opportunity sooner rather than later. It's a noble goal so hang in there.
Al Ludington
Technical Director
AMA Pro Racing
I'm debating how to proceed further, since I haven't really considered putting together a proposal to the OEMs and teams.
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at least there are some ppl in the ama with some wisdom. keep up the good fight the good. the good things to fight for are not easy but definately worth it
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Sorry,Burn. Although I had a feeling. IE our personal emails. It still comes down to money and power. We have none, even though we are the buying public. Anyways, I was told by someone up top, to get magazines to run full shootouts. If the shootouts happen, then we are on our road. OEMs can't deny which bike is winning those. He said, amateur is what we ride and matters more. Plus we have more control over that. So that is why I have been pushing that for a while. All the rules are now in place for amateurs. So the fact is, we can really push that agenda. Magazines are the key. They should be called out for not lining up all bikes that fit into the amateur classes. It is what is right.
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for some reason the magazines arent running full shootouts. the first aussie 250 shootout is out this month and it is just the 4 strokes. i would have bought the mag if it was a full shootout but they arent getting my money. even MXA who apparently support 2 strokes wont run a full shootout. i put a post on their facebook saying i was very disappointed and all their talk about 2 strokes wasnt backed up by them. i received a reply and they said that when they ran the yz 250 vs 250f comparison the yz won so there was no point.
i think it would be good to approach the oem's but they have a lot of investment in the 4 strokes so i can see why they dont want 2 strokes coming back in. they would have to at least get their money back before bringing in a new line of smokers.
at the end of the day the thing that will persuade the oems is people buying 2 strokes instead of 4 strokes. the only problem is that only works for the lites class because unless you buy tm or 300 kit for ktm or bore out a 250 there are no open class 2 strokes anyway. husky and husaberg make them but not motocross bikes.
if all amateur competition adopts cc for cc rule then what is run in the pros is of no consequence although these rules have been brought in in australia and there are hardly any two strokes running over here anyway. people like my brother are the reason, he wants a 4 stroke cos for nearly the same money you can get the latest technology instead of 5 year old tech.
only when 2 strokes are consistantly seen up the front will anything happen
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only when 2 strokes are consistantly seen up the front will anything happen
But is that the problem. I mean all the shootouts are done with 250F's but you can run a 250 smoker in the lights class both here and Aussie yet the young guys who have never thrown a leg over a 250 smoker are still led to believe the F is the way to go.
Massive marketing over the years have pushed the smoker to "old" status.
There needs to be full shootouts with the bikes that are allowable in the lites class.
But the magizines rely on advertising dollars from the manufactors. Catch 22. Don't know if the magizines have the ball's. :-\
As you know DK won the lites class here on a YZ but the latest Yamaha add has specials on 250F's & 450F's. WTF ?
Forget about any of the manufactors putting 2 strokes on the track, Not gunna happen.
The way I see it is a wealthy private team that get's no backing from a manufactor need's to put a team of 2 strokes together and see what happens. Know any one ?
Some how there needs to be a way of showing to privateers the benefits of running a 2 stroke against the 50k factory bikes.
The only guys to have run 2 strokes the last year both here & Aussie were old guys.
We need young guys on them.
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Some awesome comments on this page!!!
Hitting the nail on the head!!!
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only when 2 strokes are consistantly seen up the front will anything happen
But is that the problem. I mean all the shootouts are done with 250F's but you can run a 250 smoker in the lights class both here and Aussie yet the young guys who have never thrown a leg over a 250 smoker are still led to believe the F is the way to go.
Massive marketing over the years have pushed the smoker to "old" status.
There needs to be full shootouts with the bikes that are allowable in the lites class.
But the magizines rely on advertising dollars from the manufactors. Catch 22. Don't know if the magizines have the ball's. :-\
As you know DK won the lites class here on a YZ but the latest Yamaha add has specials on 250F's & 450F's. WTF ?
Forget about any of the manufactors putting 2 strokes on the track, Not gunna happen.
The way I see it is a wealthy private team that get's no backing from a manufactor need's to put a team of 2 strokes together and see what happens. Know any one ?
Some how there needs to be a way of showing to privateers the benefits of running a 2 stroke against the 50k factory bikes.
The only guys to have run 2 strokes the last year both here & Aussie were old guys.
We need young guys on them.
Let me ask you this.. Do you have the balls to do something the guys signing your paycheck don't want you to do? Knowing full well if you piss them off bad enough they'll quit paying you? That's the position these mags are in. It's easy to write a little blurb in a story like the test of the YZ, but it's another to test all the 250s together and say the YZ is still head and shoulders above all the 250F's. Not even Yamaha wants that because the YZ is such a limited production run, the 250F is their main bike still.
The OEMs rule a lot more than just the AMA series, it's not so easy to go against that and hope to keep making a living in this small sport. No one is getting rich here. In my humble opinion the answer is to keep it grassroots and just ride. Show and tell people which bike is better and more cost effective. When the OEMs 4-stroke sales drop sharply enough they'll either go back to 2-strokes or pull out of this market entirely. Then you have to hope the Euro manufactures, or God forbid the Chinese, pick up the slack and give you some option to buy.
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On several European Husaberg dealer-websites, they do not advert the 2 Stroke TE models...
Perhaps not allowed because it's too good?
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iv boycotted all 4 stroke racing . I dont watch it on tv i dont go to see local meets where i know its going to be boring 4 joke lawn mowers .I say lets boycott them and call it the big mx boycott :P
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Let me ask you this.. Do you have the balls to do something the guys signing your paycheck don't want you to do? Knowing full well if you piss them off bad enough they'll quit paying you? That's the position these mags are in. It's easy to write a little blurb in a story like the test of the YZ, but it's another to test all the 250s together and say the YZ is still head and shoulders above all the 250F's. Not even Yamaha wants that because the YZ is such a limited production run, the 250F is their main bike still.
Thats exactly what I said. :)
My post was meant for chump6784 and what his thoughts were on getting a decent rider in the Pro lites class to run a 2 stroke.
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One thing I think we need to stop doing is buying new YZ's. Instead buy a new KTM's, TM, ect... This will show yamaha that we are interested in 2 strokes but won't settle with an old product. If it is true that yamaha is just running the yz stock out, then this will atleast make them do minor updates to sell the remainder YZ's. Also it supports the brands that supports us. IMO who would want to buy a new $6k+ YZ when you can find the same bike barely used for under $3k anyways....
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Let me ask you this.. Do you have the balls to do something the guys signing your paycheck don't want you to do? Knowing full well if you piss them off bad enough they'll quit paying you? That's the position these mags are in. It's easy to write a little blurb in a story like the test of the YZ, but it's another to test all the 250s together and say the YZ is still head and shoulders above all the 250F's. Not even Yamaha wants that because the YZ is such a limited production run, the 250F is their main bike still.
Thats exactly what I said. :)
My post was meant for chump6784 and what his thoughts were on getting a decent rider in the Pro lites class to run a 2 stroke.
i understand completely the point you were trying to make. it will take a rich private team to do this as the top riders are all snatched up by the manufacturers to and are paid to ride 4 strokes. telling the team manager you wanted to ride a 2 stroke would be career suicide.
i dont know if there would be a problem with magazines running full tests tho. ADB magazine has run a few comparisons of the enduro models both 2 and 4 stroke together to prove which was better in the bush and also if the 2 stroke is really dead. at the end of the article they kinda said that some like the 2 and some like the 4 and go ride them and decide yourself i guess the only thing about those test were that the manufacturers in it made both 2 and 4 strokers where as i can see honda/kawasaki/suzuki getting the shits if a yz/ktm 2 stroke hosed their 4 strokes in a shootout.
Robbie Marshall ran a yz 250 in the lites class in the aus super x but was only running mid pack and while he did beat a lot of 4 strokes he was also beaten by them. it was a shame that he was the only one getting up the front on one cos it did kind of make him look like the silly one running the 2 stroke. there were 2 others running 2 strokes but they were finishing further down the field
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I guess you can have the greatest argument in the world, but if the "powers that be" aren't buying it, then you're sunk.
Yeah it is a conspiracy between the OEMs, the AMA, and the magazines to kill off the 2-stroke. You just hate to see it happen without doing something.
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i think that they are like Bill gates . If this was happening in the computer market then they would be in court , Perhaps the next step should be a legal one >:(
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What do you mean? Against the AMA? There is definitely an injustice, but I'm not sure about legal grounds. I like it though Meger z.
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Robbie Marshall ran a yz 250 in the lites class in the aus super x but was only running mid pack and while he did beat a lot of 4 strokes he was also beaten by them. it was a shame that he was the only one getting up the front on one cos it did kind of make him look like the silly one running the 2 stroke. there were 2 others running 2 strokes but they were finishing further down the field
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You have to keep what Robbie achieved in perspective. Knowing what he went through, they had NOTHING go their way throughout the entire season. For one, every race suffered rain, and with the slick clay the tracks were made from, the YZ really struggled to hook up and get traction. He really didnt like the feel of a flywheel weight either, and chose to ride the peaky motor rather than a bike with smoother power delivery. The conditions really didnt suit this setup. The one race where the track was good, Robbie won his heat race in front of Matt Moss who was the fastest lites rider in my opinion, along with many other factory riders. Also, he just couldnt buy a good start in the finals. He practiced his starts non stop throughout the week, but could not get a good drive out of the slick starting gate sections. As far as the other two stroke guys, Kim Ashkenazi had some really good riders, and only contested half the series. Was in the top 5 in timed qualifying when the tracks were good. Also, Nathan Crawford would have turned heads, but had Ford Dale crash in front of him in the first heat of the first round. He went down hard and that put him out for the season. And back on a 450. :( I dont think we will see any contenders on two strokes this year unfortunately.