Two Stroke Motocross
Two Stroke Motocross Forum => General Two Stroke Talk => Topic started by: wintrader on January 17, 2011, 08:36:09 AM
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I told you. Where does this all leads to? As i told you my brother prepares classic ferrari's for races. Those rich guys do the same thing. But motocross if not about this i hope.
What is next pneumatic valves, turbo's, desmodromic valves (works very good on small 4 strokes), longstroke engine or shortstroke engine for different tracs, carbon parts etc etc. What is the use of this?? Who for example needs a startengine on his 2 stroke?
Is was all that easy with the 2 strokes. The big factories are destroying their own market.
And does all this make you faster?
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http://www.motocrossactionmag.com/Main/News/AMA-RULE-OF-THE-WEEK-WHERE-ART-THOU-TRACTION-CONTR-2749.aspx (http://www.motocrossactionmag.com/Main/News/AMA-RULE-OF-THE-WEEK-WHERE-ART-THOU-TRACTION-CONTR-2749.aspx)
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NOPE
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isn't a motor going twice as slow a form of traction control? ;D
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AMA Road series had a big drama going on for years with Team Suzuki / Yosh with Mladin using TC without being legal.. But AMA never did anything because they were the show! AMA is all about the show! No wonders all Manufacturers pull out of the series.. They also had some displacement cheating problems going on with the BUELL . AMA is such a great organization. TC should be a great idea for 2 stroke! What is next for the 4 stroke? Power assisted steering??? LOL they keep getting bigger every years!
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Wouldn't traction control really mess you up in MX, though? I mean, there's a lot of slideways action going on, even if it's not for very long and it seems to me that an electronic system that says, "No, you can't have power now" could be seriously dangerous if you're in a situation where you need to hang the back end out for whatever reason. Personal opinion, I think TC can be a great tool on tarmac but a disaster for loose-surface racing. Just imagine rally racing with no wheel spin!
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Stewart had some kind of fancy electronic gizmo on his bike at Phoenix, when asked about it he beat around the bush and said you people were just seeing things (After races interview on speed.com)
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In an offroad situation traction control would reduce wheelspin not eliminate it and would really help 2ts.
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I suppose if calibrated properly it could be quite good. Sort of a limited-slip traction control rather than the minivan-style "thou shalt not spin ever" traction control. My opinion is, they should allow the system into racing, just so long as it is unmodified from what's sold on stock production motorcycles. That way if Yamaha wants James Stewart to have a sort of electronic Jesus on his side, they have to sell it to everyone else as well. If they want it to be adjustable, then they make it adjustable on the stock bike. If the system proves too expensive or unreliable or whatever for consumers, they'll buy fewer Yamahas and the company will either get rid of the feature or make an attempt to fix whatever's wrong with it.
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AMA Road series had a big drama going on for years with Team Suzuki / Yosh with Mladin using TC without being legal.. But AMA never did anything because they were the show! AMA is all about the show! No wonders all Manufacturers pull out of the series.. They also had some displacement cheating problems going on with the BUELL . AMA is such a great organization. TC should be a great idea for 2 stroke! What is next for the 4 stroke? Power assisted steering??? LOL they keep getting bigger every years!
The problem was more that the AMA were powerless to stop the use of traction control. As Bazaaz(sp ?) had found a way of hacking the ECU and installing a PREDICTIVE algorithm for traction controll. In other words the bike 'learned' as it went around the track, then quickly 'forgot' everything on the cool down lap. So any testing post race would so a stock standard Gixxer 1000 ecu. Very Very clever.
Traction controll is not so easy on a mx bike, a road bike(or car) is simple stuff a algorithm that compares front and rear wheel speeds , so when X = > YYYHz cut fuel to cyl No1. A dirt bike the front wheel is rarely on the ground which makes thing difficult, but I thik it could be done with predictive software. All traction control systems have a range to work on 1-10 most MotoGP riders use 4-5 (Casey Stoner about 3.5) as they need a certain amount of wheel spin to turn the bike.
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I'm starting to dislike all types of professional racing.
Very few racing organisations have the capacity to stop this stuff, carbed or EFI :'(
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in case anyone is not up to date with the topic....
James Stewart 2011 Supercross Traction Control debat plus wreck (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ySSSXDDGSw#)
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1.14 Telemetry and Traction Control
a. Electronic devices designed specifically for traction control are
prohibited. This includes sensors that can determine front
wheel speed, and any electronic control to the brake systems.
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I don't really like these electronic F1-style gizmo's.
It should be all about the rider/bike combo. In 10 years from now
even a monkey can ride the best bike.
Speaking of future riders:
I think Honda is working on a new type of ASIMO mx robot rider.
They won't have to pay Asimo to ride a CRF450. And if his microchip brain somehow
mis-calculates and crashes, there will be a whole line of spare robots waiting to finish the race.
This gives Honda more chances to win the championship, and to rule the industry...~!
Human-like robots are big buisness for these japanese OEM's.
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Much ado about nothing as far as I can see.It's almost guaranteed it's just data acquisition.Honda did it for years on their CR's.
In order to be a traction control system it would have to be hooked up through the trans in order to have a way to regulate traction.It would then require a suitable cpu to run it as well as related wiring and such.As far as that goes,slipper clutches are a form of traction control(for that matter,what about a Rekluse?) but to do it electronically would require a solenoid of some sort to slip the clutch in low traction situations.If it was an ABS system,it would require a cpu as well and a pump set up to regulate brake pressure.Because MX sometimes requires one to slip,slide and spin,the chances anyone will try to gear up an electronic traction control system is slim to none-and it's unlikely anyone would want the weight penalty-or a slipping clutch on a 4t.
If it's not data acquisition,it wouldn't surprise me if it did nothing at all other than to try to get into the heads of the other riders and teams.In Pro racing,it wouldn't be the first time.
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Hmmm, wouldn't a fly wheel weight do the same thing?
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When they zoomed in on his swingarm, you could see a bung welded to his swingarm right above the axle nut. It looked like a typical abs style magnet sensor could mount to it with one bolt, and that it was lined up with the brake rotor mounting bolts. It wasn't installed for the main event, so I don't see how they can call it traction control.
I'm betting they were gathering data, then adjusting the jetting in the pits, which I don't see a problem with. I'm also with JETZ, if Yamaha came out with a factory form of traction control, that would be cool too.
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And does all this make you faster?
A rider of Stewarts Caliber......absolutely it will make you faster. Technology like this is going to be seen more and more the sport is evolving just like any other. The teams with the money will work on advantages in the "grey areas" of the rule book.
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A traction control device could work in conjunction with ignition timing and powervalve position.The only advantage a 4T has over a 2T (cc for cc) is traction - traction control on a 2T would eliminate this.
When the big "4" want traction control the AMA will legalize it.
JS should consider politics with an answer like that. :-X
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Hell, if the big four wanted to run nitro...
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I'll bet $20 it was a digital temperature and pressure sensor on the caliper, and the device on the rotor was a speed sensor that clocked wheel lock up and deceleration speeds. Obviously they are testing a new caliper.
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I'll bet $20 it was a digital temperature and pressure sensor on the caliper, and the device on the rotor was a speed sensor that clocked wheel lock up and deceleration speeds. Obviously they are testing a new caliper.
Check out Stewart's reply and reaction to Erin Bates asking about the device on his bike at 2:12
http://www.speedtv.com//video/moto-racing/supercross/sx-phoenix-recap-2011-752459780001/1 (http://www.speedtv.com//video/moto-racing/supercross/sx-phoenix-recap-2011-752459780001/1)
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A Tweet an hour ago from Chad Reed.. Who wants to take bets on how soon AMA will pass another rule change? >:(
CRtwotwo Chad Reed
Just got educated on this whole TC dealio:) let's just say there is endless possibilities. the AMA should just legalize it right now IMO...
1 hour ago Favorite Retweet Reply
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A Tweet an hour ago from Chad Reed.. Who wants to take bets on how soon AMA will pass another rule change? >:(
CRtwotwo Chad Reed
Just got educated on this whole TC dealio:) let's just say there is endless possibilities. the AMA should just legalize it right now IMO...
1 hour ago Favorite Retweet Reply
Now that is very interesting !! I think the AMA should do the exact opposite. Make sure any type of traction control is absolutely illegal.
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With TC banned it becomes an 'arms race' and for everyone it gets evermore expensive in each round of catch me if you can. With TC being legal the costs of the systems come down.As the developers can sell systems to anyone that wants them, rather than have to develop costly methods of hiding the system.
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I thought 4strokes were traction control
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Everyone knows what it was now. Stewart won that race fair and square per the current rules. The guy worked hard, came back after a year off to get his 38th win only to be accused of cheating....his reaction was tame compared to how mine would have been.
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I suspect its a wind up, why would Bubba put himself in a position to accused of cheating, and when your laying flat over a table top does it switch the engine off, or does it have some way of knowing its in the air, or indeed Panic revving,..
Good Luck
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Bubba could whoop those guys riding an 81 kx125
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Much ado about nothing as far as I can see.It's almost guaranteed it's just data acquisition.Honda did it for years on their CR's.
In order to be a traction control system it would have to be hooked up through the trans in order to have a way to regulate traction.It would then require a suitable cpu to run it as well as related wiring and such.As far as that goes,slipper clutches are a form of traction control(for that matter,what about a Rekluse?) but to do it electronically would require a solenoid of some sort to slip the clutch in low traction situations.If it was an ABS system,it would require a cpu as well and a pump set up to regulate brake pressure.Because MX sometimes requires one to slip,slide and spin,the chances anyone will try to gear up an electronic traction control system is slim to none-and it's unlikely anyone would want the weight penalty-or a slipping clutch on a 4t.
If it's not data acquisition,it wouldn't surprise me if it did nothing at all other than to try to get into the heads of the other riders and teams.In Pro racing,it wouldn't be the first time.
It could very easily be hooked to the ECU and be used exclusively for the start in order to help get the holeshot. I'm sure they know the wheelspeed at any given RMP, so if it exceeds the known number, the ECU is triggered to retard the ignition timing slightly. It's probably set to shut off and clear itself after the start because it would affect his jumps if it acted in mid-air. This is just a scanario that I thought out, not saying it's what he has on his bike (JS). But he did get the holeshot, and whith less wheelspin and equal power as everyone else, he'd have a better chance of getting it every time. Things that make you go hmmmmmm.... A holeshot exclusive ECU traction control device. When JS7 is out front early, he almost always wins. If he starts off in the pack, he either crashes or dosen't win.
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While we are at it why dont they just fit auto trans,Traction Control & wrap the whole bike/Rider with bubble wrap to go with the Fooper engine and make it easy for everyone. :-X
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I got it, just put everyone on quads
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Opps forgot.
Also fit electronic Pneumatic suspension to all factory bikes as well.
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Progress isn't such a bad thing.Without it we would still be covered in fur and swinging through the trees (think Ford). ;D
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ah but life was so much less complicated in that time. eat,sleep,screw, run from the occasional sabertooth tiger.
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Yet again, this is an occasion where the "JETZcorp Universal Race Standards Plan" (JURSP) would save the day. Have your three standard 125, 250, and 500cc classes with all the rules in place to keep things difficult (manual transmission, no electronic aids, etc) but then also have the total unlimited crazy insanity prototype class, with no rules on the technology except that it's got to have two wheels. Humanity will discover the fastest way to go off-road on a bike under this system. Or, they'll discover teleportation, either way, it'll be bad-ass. Yay for JURSP!
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Progress isn't such a bad thing.Without it we would still be covered in fur and swinging through the trees (think Ford). ;D
Ah yes,those were the days :D
I agree though,without progress some would still be on old Maicos.Oh the horror :o
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Progress isn't such a bad thing.Without it we would still be covered in fur and swinging through the trees (think Ford). ;D
Ah yes,those were the days :D
I agree though,without progress some would still be on old Maicos.Oh the horror :o
That's incorrect, Maicos are always a Step Ahead!
(http://www.maicowerk.com/Images/Maico/Ads/82250alpha1ad.jpg)
(http://www.maicowerk.com/Images/Maico/Ads/82alphaenduroad.jpg)
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ah but life was so much less complicated in that time. eat,sleep,screw, run from the occasional sabertooth tiger.
Nice :D
I think most people on here know I am not against technology, But why does everything have to be dumbed down so much these days.
Dirt bikes are supposed to be hard to ride fast.
Electric start 50's ::). Why ?
Electronics have ruined most motosports and made it unatainable except for the very rich.
The best traction control system i have ever heard of is called "The Throttle". ;D
Bring on a DI 2 Stroke bike and i will be a happy chappy.
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I suspect its a wind up, why would Bubba put himself in a position to accused of cheating
Because the factory said to do it :P
Bubba could whoop those guys riding an 81 kx125
hmmmm, dunno 'bout that
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"That's incorrect, Maicos are always a Step Ahead!"
Only cause you can't stop them. lmao
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Don't confuse Maicos with Toyotas. :P
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lmao
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Much ado about nothing as far as I can see.It's almost guaranteed it's just data acquisition.Honda did it for years on their CR's.
In order to be a traction control system it would have to be hooked up through the trans in order to have a way to regulate traction.It would then require a suitable cpu to run it as well as related wiring and such.As far as that goes,slipper clutches are a form of traction control(for that matter,what about a Rekluse?) but to do it electronically would require a solenoid of some sort to slip the clutch in low traction situations.If it was an ABS system,it would require a cpu as well and a pump set up to regulate brake pressure.Because MX sometimes requires one to slip,slide and spin,the chances anyone will try to gear up an electronic traction control system is slim to none-and it's unlikely anyone would want the weight penalty-or a slipping clutch on a 4t.
If it's not data acquisition,it wouldn't surprise me if it did nothing at all other than to try to get into the heads of the other riders and teams.In Pro racing,it wouldn't be the first time.
It could very easily be hooked to the ECU and be used exclusively for the start in order to help get the holeshot. I'm sure they know the wheelspeed at any given RMP, so if it exceeds the known number, the ECU is triggered to retard the ignition timing slightly. It's probably set to shut off and clear itself after the start because it would affect his jumps if it acted in mid-air.
Hmmm,never thought of that.In that limited capacity,you're right,it could be easily done.Good thinking.