Two Stroke Motocross
Two Stroke Motocross Forum => General Two Stroke Talk => Topic started by: wintrader on December 18, 2010, 10:52:39 AM
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18. / 19. Dezember 2010
SX1
Ergebnis B Zeittraining Samstag DMSB SX 05/10 FIM 297/50 UEM 21/134
Zeitnahme und Auswertung: WIGE PERFORMANCE GmbH, 53520 Meuspath (GER), www.wige-performance.de (http://www.wige-performance.de) Seite 1
Zeitnahme-Obfrau: Sonja Hügle, Nürtingen gedruckt : 18.12.2010 - 14:31
ADAC Supercross München
Olympiahalle (350 m)
Samstag, 18.12.2010
Pos # Name NAT Marke Team/Bewerber Rdn Zeit km/h
1 120 Soubeyras Cedric FRA KTM KTM Sarholz Racing Team 15 25.361 51.812
2 109 Boni Matt USA Kawasaki Sturm Racing Team 16 25.628 51.272
3 4 Neugebauer Filip CZ Kawasaki ZAP Kawasaki Elf Team Pfeil 15 26.120 50.306
4 18 Siebler Cole USA Honda Honda-Meyer-Racing-Team 16 26.216 50.122
5 20 Vongsana Khounsith FRA KTM KTM Scott Racing Team 14 26.290 49.981
6 108 Rodrigues Joaquim POR Honda Team Honda Waldmann 15 26.509 49.568
7 129 Sallefranque Josse FRA Yamaha ACMoTeC-Ã?hlins-MG Sport 12 26.673 49.263
8 23 Peick Weston USA Yamaha ACMoTeC-Ã?hlins-MG Sport 17 26.732 49.155
9 114 Vanni Julien FRA Honda Team Honda Waldmann 14 26.925 48.802
10 32 Sturm Robert GER Kawasaki MG Sport 15 27.129 48.435
11 21 Terreblanche Shannon RSA Young Force Racing 11 27.968 46.982
12 25 Lafont Yohan FRA KTM KTM Kosak Racing 13 27.980 46.962
13 6 Adrian Andre GER Honda KMP-Racing-team 14 28.314 46.408
Gruppe A:
1. Musquin Mickael (FRA, HON), 25.431
2. Renner Ricky (USA, KAW), 26.011
...3. Catanzaro AJ (USA, KAW), 26.022
4. Pellegrini Angelo (ITA, SUZ), 26.025
...5. Clark Ryan (USA, HON), 26.078
6. Thuresson Filip (SWE, SUZ), 26.194
7. Rombaut Loic (FRA, KAW), 26.247
8. Maier Teddy (USA, KAW), 26.315
9. Sewell Travis (USA, KAW), 26.571
10. Saylor Jakob (USA, SUZ), 26.927
11. Ludwig Stefan (GER, KAW), 28.272
12. Chittaro Manuel (GER, KTM), 28.332
Gruppe B:
1. Soubeyras Cedric (FRA, KTM), 25.361
2. Boni Matt (USA, KAW), 25.628
3. Neugebauer Filip (CZE, KAW), 26.120
4. Siebler Cole (USA, HON), 26.216
5. Vongsana Khounsith (FRA, KTM), 26.290
6. Rodrigues Joaquim (POR, HON), 26.509
7. Sallefranque Josse (FRA, YAM), 26.673
8. Peick Weston (USA, YAM), 26.732
9. Vanni Julien (FRA, HON), 26.925
10. Sturm Robert (GER, KAW), 27.129
11. Terreblanche Shannon (RSA, SUZ), 27.968
12. Lafont Yohan (FRA, KTM), 27.980
13. Adrian Andre (GER, HON), 28.314
Gruppe C:
1. Thomas Jason (USA, SUZ), 26.418
2. Richier Florent (FRA, KAW), 26.440
3. Nemeth Kornel (HUN, SUZ), 26.620
4. Ramette Thomas (FRA, KTM), 26.719
5. Esposti Davide Degli (ITA, SUZ), 26.773
6. Mannevy Cedric (FRA, SUZ), 26.791
7. Sellards Brock (USA, HON), 26.921
8. Johnson Chad (USA, KAW), 27.140
3 groups. Cedric fastest!!!! (250 2 stroke disadvantage???? I think not)
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Numbers don't lie. :)
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hahaha amazing!
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Pos # Name NAT Marke Team/Bewerber Rdn Zeit km/h
1 109 Boni Matt USA Kawasaki Sturm Racing Team 12 5:01.812 73.663
2 555 Musquin Mickael FRA Honda KMP-Racing-team 12 5:06.623 68.951
3 1 Thomas Jason USA Suzuki Team 20 Suspension Suzuki 12 5:10.312 66.354
4 120 Soubeyras Cedric FRA KTM KTM Sarholz Racing Team 12 5:11.988 62.724
5 3 Maier Teddy USA Kawasaki Osicka Kawasaki Elf Team Pfeil 12 5:13.993 63.895
6 27 Sewell Travis USA Kawasaki EBS Racing 12 5:17.920 62.862
7 108 Rodrigues Joaquim POR Honda Team Honda Waldmann 12 5:20.264 66.582
8 30 Renner Ricky USA Kawasaki Sturm Racing Team 12 5:21.119 60.769
9 7 Siegl Daniel GER KTM Kalli-Racing 12 5:23.177 65.809
10 34 Rombaut Loic FRA Kawasaki Sturm Racing Team 12 5:26.212 63.951
11 2 Richier Florent FRA Kawasaki Osicka Kawasaki Elf Team Pfeil 11 5:16.227 49.664
Nicht Gewertet
23 Peick Weston USA Yamaha ACMoTeC-Ã?hlins-MG Sport 5 2:06.580 65.095
Schnellste Runde
109 Boni Matt 17.838 73.663
Soubeyras became 4 th in the final. Is ok. But he can do better. He had bad start.
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Thanks for the updates man
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He can easily qualify for a national. Cause Ricky Renner who he raced ^ has gotten in the 30'sth in nationals last season.
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Yeah and don't forget about Brian Shuckhart #414 who spanked half the foopers at High Point and Steel City when he raced his 2008 RM 250.
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Not belittling how well he is doing and how good he is. But what if he isn't the best, and is still winning or doing great on the 2 stroke. What if the factory guys are plain and simply better than him? Maybe the 4 choke is actually hindering them??? ;D
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Not belittling how well he is doing and how good he is. But what if he isn't the best, and is still winning or doing great on the 2 stroke. What if the factory guys are plain and simply better than him? Maybe the 4 choke is actually hindering them??? ;D
I think so too.
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The 4 Stroke certainly has been hindering Chad Reed since the beginning of 06...
Here's what he was like before:
Ama Supercross 2005 San Diego Part 1. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogGPrvX0x68#)
Ama Supercross 2005 San Diego Part 2. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEX_EWWjP5Y#)
When all the teams made it a rule that all the riders had to be on 4 Strokes for Supercross 06, chad definitely suffered.
If Cedric keeps beating the FOOPER troopers in Euro SX, especially the Americans, I'm sure pressure will be applied to him and his sponsors to get him off the 2 stroke.
The reason we don't see 2 strokes in our races anymore is because of races like the ones above where great riders on great bikes revealed the FOOPERS as the pirouetting pigs they really are... In this race, every single FOOPER was lapped no matter who was riding it! That wasn't good for 4 Stroke sales, so they made sure no one would be on a 2 stroke the following year.
Who knows how they'll force Cedric off his bike, but they'll probably try.
Thanks,
Jim
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That was one of the best races i have ev er seen. So again who says 250 2 strokes are a disadvantage???? Those two riders lapped everyone!!!! Are the four strokes , 5 years later , so much better?? Come on!! Not possible. I think 2 stroke is an advantage. And 250 cc is more then enough. I do not think more cc's will give them bertter laptimers.
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That was one of the best races i have ev er seen. So again who says 250 2 strokes are a disadvantage???? Those two riders lapped everyone!!!! Are the four strokes , 5 years later , so much better?? Come on!! Not possible. I think 2 stroke is an advantage. And 250 cc is more then enough. I do not think more cc's will give them bertter laptimers.
4 stroke are better now and fully injected.. dunno why Chad Reed didn't pick the 2 stroke..instead he picked the company that killed it.( Honda).. but the 2 stroke has a weight advantage and it is easy to squeeze the hps out of them.. just UPS your engine to Pro Circuit.. won't believe the difference! We just need the right rider.. just like Cedric Soubeyras but the European market is more open minded for changes than North America..
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Fully injected is that so much better. You think it is better but ktm still uses carbs on their 450. For the same reason people think 4 strokes are better they also think injected is better or alu frames or links and so on. think! They have to invent something every year so they can convince you to buy the latest model. Even if it is not better at al. Then you can buy the new model because you can tell your friends that you have a fully injected bike with alu frame and that the factory riders also use those features.
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Fully injected is that so much better. You think it is better but ktm still uses carbs on their 450. For the same reason people think 4 strokes are better they also think injected is better or alu frames or links and so on. think! They have to invent something every year so they can convince you to buy the latest model. Even if it is not better at al. Then you can buy the new model because you can tell your friends that you have a fully injected bike with alu frame and that the factory riders also use those features.
KTM put all he money and R&D on the 350.. The 350 is fully injected.. Direct Injection is night and days better on a 4 stroke. period. This is why all the FMX riders started to jump the 4 junk... EFI on 2 stroke is also better. Ask Bombardier!
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Why is it then that motocrossaction tested the ktm 450 without injection and said it is the besdt engine of all 450's? Injected or not? Also read test where it said the kawa fuel injection is not better then the 250 f without injection. Say ok it is better is it so much better then 5 years ago? Ricky and Reed lapped the whole field. Would it be different if those other riders would be riding a 2011 four stroke bike?
What else are they going yo invent next year? Pneumatic valve systems? Or desmo systems? By the way desmo valve system can handle more revs so perhaps that is better.
I only read that ktm 250 f has a good injection system what is better then the öld"carbs. Anyway a normal rider will not notice and he will not be faster.
Why has Ktm changed their 4 strokes to linkage? Because the public wanted it!!! Something new again. And look what happens everybody think it is better and there they go to the shop and buy the ktm with the linkage!!!! Is better!!! Factory riders also use it!!! Their 450 has factory riders have injection too!!! Next year maybe!!! then we all buy it!
Not because it will make us faster just because they tell us we will be faster. All about money.
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Who is so stupid to ride a bike with öld"technology. No linkage suspension , no thanks. Carbs no we need injection. ;D
This is money!!! But see what happens now. Due to crisis and the people who actually buy the bikes everybody switches to 2 strokes. We want simplicity and cheap tpo maintain bikes.
This is not what the factories expected!!! Rhey want to go the desmodromic valves yhe pneumatic valves all new technpology. Which is not faster but then they can make YOU believe they will be faster.
Again i state laptimes of 250f are NOT faster then 450 F. Not in GP or sx. And if a 250 2 stroke is a not fair advantage over a 250f we can all calculate what this means.
The factory riders ride what the factory tells them to ride!!
But all will change soon because the public does not want 4 strokes anymore. Not in europe! So what to do? Problem for the factories.
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Why is it then that motocrossaction tested the ktm 450 without injection and said it is the besdt engine of all 450's? Injected or not? Also read test where it said the kawa fuel injection is not better then the 250 f without injection. Say ok it is better is it so much better then 5 years ago? Ricky and Reed lapped the whole field. Would it be different if those other riders would be riding a 2011 four stroke bike?
What else are they going yo invent next year? Pneumatic valve systems? Or desmo systems? By the way desmo valve system can handle more revs so perhaps that is better.
I only read that ktm 250 f has a good injection system what is better then the öld"carbs. Anyway a normal rider will not notice and he will not be faster.
Why has Ktm changed their 4 strokes to linkage? Because the public wanted it!!! Something new again. And look what happens everybody think it is better and there they go to the shop and buy the ktm with the linkage!!!! Is better!!! Factory riders also use it!!! Their 450 has factory riders have injection too!!! Next year maybe!!! then we all buy it!
Not because it will make us faster just because they tell us we will be faster. All about money.
Jetting a carb spot on is a work of art and a pain in the arse.. a friend at work bought the new ktm 350 and keep telling me that is a huge difference between his old bike kx250f and his new Pumpkin.. because of the fuel injection...the guy is a mechanic and take care of his bikes like no tomorrow he put more than 55 hours on his last top end on his 250f.. I would like to skip mixing gas... and playing with the damn jets.. and yeah EFI is the fix for it..Almost no emissions,better gas millage, no extra weight.. less maintenance more playing! To match nowadays grunt from the 4 stroke the 2 stroke need more displacement. this is it.. Have you ever rode the latest 4 stroke..I can barely stay on the seat!
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The two stroke is an advantage.
The 4 Porkers just got porky-er with the addition of the heavy EFI units. Just another tech tangle for Transworld Mowercross to get the geeks all hyped up about, when in fact the bikes have suffered power wise. All EFI did was patch a hole in the 4 stroke's bedpan. They used to have that nasty, unpredictable bog sometimes...
Two strokes don't need EFI or DFI and they've never needed it, because they don't suffer from that unexpected bog. Any normally aspirated 2 stroke engine like the ones we've all got works perfectly all the way through the power band. It is then up the the rider to master the skill of fully exploiting that powerband. No bogs, no flame outs, no worries... And the 2 stroke throttle response is so good that it's what all the EFI 4 stroke jokeys are trying to imitate with their fake Atari 2600 EFI ignition map dial-a-powerbands. But computer controlled fakery isn't as good as the real thing. I wouldn't want to trade in the real powerband my 2 stroke already has for a computer controlled imitation of a real powerband like EFI/DFI can produce. I don't want an Avatar... I want a motocross bike! Those geek-o-tron programmable fake power curves are just bad imitations of what your everyday average YZ250 does naturally.
Besides, those DFI 2 strokes sound like a Vibrator through a Peavey. Or maybe a malfunctioning electric tooth brush through a Peavey.
Thanks,
Jim
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^ I could not agree more.
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The two stroke is an advantage.
The 4 Porkers just got porky-er with the addition of the heavy EFI units. Just another tech tangle for Transworld Mowercross to get the geeks all hyped up about, when in fact the bikes have suffered power wise. All EFI did was patch a hole in the 4 stroke's bedpan. They used to have that nasty, unpredictable bog sometimes...
Two strokes don't need EFI or DFI and they've never needed it, because they don't suffer from that unexpected bog. Any normally aspirated 2 stroke engine like the ones we've all got works perfectly all the way through the power band. It is then up the the rider to master the skill of fully exploiting that powerband. No bogs, no flame outs, no worries... And the 2 stroke throttle response is so good that it's what all the EFI 4 stroke jokeys are trying to imitate with their fake Atari 2600 EFI ignition map dial-a-powerbands. But computer controlled fakery isn't as good as the real thing. I wouldn't want to trade in the real powerband my 2 stroke already has for a computer controlled imitation of a real powerband like EFI/DFI can produce. I don't want an Avatar... I want a motocross bike! Those geek-o-tron programmable fake power curves are just bad imitations of what your everyday average YZ250 does naturally.
Besides, those DFI 2 strokes sound like a Vibrator through a Peavey. Or maybe a malfunctioning electric tooth brush through a Peavey.
Thanks,
Jim
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Power is power and I don't think a four stroke is a disadvantage at all when they make more of it. The only downsides I see is having a pig of a bike that takes more effort to "flick" around the track and potentially being stranded as you kick your leg to death. I think the bigger reason people turn back to the two stroke is because the explosive power band is just more fun IMO.
It's like the difference between driving a new Acura TL everyday to work and then getting behind the wheel of a Fox body mustang with 4.10 gears and manual tranny. Sure, the Acura is probably the "faster" car and puts the power down more effectively, but getting a bunch of rubber while grabbing 3rd gear is just more FUN. No way around it, the two strokes are just a more fun bike to ride and people are starting to realize it.
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The two stroke is an advantage.
The 4 Porkers just got porky-er with the addition of the heavy EFI units. Just another tech tangle for Transworld Mowercross to get the geeks all hyped up about, when in fact the bikes have suffered power wise. All EFI did was patch a hole in the 4 stroke's bedpan. They used to have that nasty, unpredictable bog sometimes...
Two strokes don't need EFI or DFI and they've never needed it, because they don't suffer from that unexpected bog. Any normally aspirated 2 stroke engine like the ones we've all got works perfectly all the way through the power band. It is then up the the rider to master the skill of fully exploiting that powerband. No bogs, no flame outs, no worries... And the 2 stroke throttle response is so good that it's what all the EFI 4 stroke jokeys are trying to imitate with their fake Atari 2600 EFI ignition map dial-a-powerbands. But computer controlled fakery isn't as good as the real thing. I wouldn't want to trade in the real powerband my 2 stroke already has for a computer controlled imitation of a real powerband like EFI/DFI can produce. I don't want an Avatar... I want a motocross bike! Those geek-o-tron programmable fake power curves are just bad imitations of what your everyday average YZ250 does naturally.
Besides, those DFI 2 strokes sound like a Vibrator through a Peavey. Or maybe a malfunctioning electric tooth brush through a Peavey.
Thanks,
Jim
Disagree with this.. 2 stroke need to be EFI to meet the hard-core emissions control(cali is getting retarded..) Fuel Injection is fine with a 2 stroke. The Ski-doo MXZ never been better.. open your minds guys...yes it is a computer? so what? better gas mileage, less emissions than a standard 4 stroke and deliver better power without loosing the hit..longer top-end longevity because the mix is always perfect... I want something new and fresh not just a 1996 YZ 125 with new plastics..
Oh yeah! see you never owned or rode anything EFI or DFI two stroke I bet? haahah They sound crisp and pretty loud with an aftermarket exhaust.. Here is a DFI ski-doo.. Never raced arenacross? God that premix fog is annoying..
XRS 800 Road Gap (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wT-qjQC1lFM#)