Two Stroke Motocross
Two Stroke Motocross Forum => General Two Stroke Talk => Topic started by: MXLord327 on December 14, 2010, 11:18:01 AM
-
Great read!!!
http://articles.superhunky.com/4/244 (http://articles.superhunky.com/4/244)
Got to love those guys
-
What the industry needs NOW is a decent handling, reliable dirt bike that can be modified into a play racer, a trail bike, or a full blown MX racer with the right parts, and allow the owner to work on and fix any motor/suspension issue that comes up with simple hand tools, and a little mechanical expertise.
Enter Stage Right: MAICO
-
What the industry needs NOW is a decent handling, reliable dirt bike that can be modified into a play racer, a trail bike, or a full blown MX racer with the right parts, and allow the owner to work on and fix any motor/suspension issue that comes up with simple hand tools, and a little mechanical expertise.
Enter Stage Right: MAICO
Uhm, I don't think they had a $11-12,000 dirtbike in mind when they wrote that paragraph LOL :D . (Just kidding, just kidding I am not a Maico hater)
-
Ya they are specially tuned, high end bikes right now, but who knows what the future could hold :)
-
Is that an old RM engine Super Hunky has wedged in there?
-
Looks like it. I must say, I hope that idea catches on - imagine going riding and seeing everyone running around with a modern four-stroke chassis, with an air-cooled motor in it. It's not going to happen, not on a wide scale, but imagine if it did! If nothing else, the bikes would be better-looking than they are now.
-
modern four-stroke chassis, with an air-cooled motor in it.
You can keep your air cooled motor thanks.
I'll have one with water cooling that wont go out of tune when it gets hot. :(
A modern 4 stroke frame with a KDX motor thrown in would be ultra reliable. Ah Coop ;D
PS Coop. Do you know the widest tyre that will fit on a KDX ?
A mate has just bought a 04. Picking it up on sunday ;D
-
Rear Tire I assume? I don't know the widest, but have been told a 120 will fit (stock is 100). I imagine that would pretty close to the max size, but don't know for sure.
-
Yes, thanks guys, we're just trying to tell the truth about how these exploding cigar four striker MX bikes have almost ruined the sport. The 2-4 project bike is a 2001 YZ400F frame with a '79 RM250 motor stuck in it, fit like a glove. The most difficult part was cutting and re-welding the expansion chamber into a down pipe (we love down pipes). It will weigh around 210-214 lbs and put out 38 horsepower.
It should haul ass, and become a template for all those poor bastards with a blown up four stroke sitting in their garage that they can't afford to fix.
We should have it posted tonight sometime. Rick did it for off-road.com, so you can see it there too (part 1). Keep the faith guys, KTM is still pushing two stroke technology, and a direct injected two cycle is right around the bend. It will combine a four stroke type lower end, with a two stroke top end, but eliminate the loop scavenging with a high pressure injector and a variable exhaust port.
Thanks for reading!
Matt
superhunky.com
-
A couple of points.
First, Matt Cuddy is on TSM! Happy day.
Second, a down-pipe? As in, under-the-engine, down-pipe? Like, early '70s style, down-pipe?! If that's the case, this bike is going to be all new kinds of weird-looking when it's done. I can't even say whether or not I like the idea, it's just too different. Really looking forward to seeing it!
-
The only thing about the down pipe is that if you're doing technical single track with the bike it's going to smash the pipe!
-
First, Matt Cuddy is on TSM! Happy day.
X2 on that! Welcome aboard Matt, I've been a fan for a long time and I'm even registered at superhunky.com, glad you're here and tell Hunky I said.... BBbbbrrraaaaaaappppppp ;D
-
Down pipe.
On a relatively modern frame.
So, if it's built properly, to work well, the divergent cone and belly will be under the frame.
Unless they are limiting the travel - by means that make the units bottom earlier, it will have less chance of survival than a sun burnt snowflake.
Modern , long travel bikes leave about an inch / 2inches at the most between the frame rails and flat ground.
I like what they are doing, but, unless they are limiting the travel, or it's a flat track bike, it sure isn't remotely practical with a down pipe. So, building for a style they like = impractical bike.
Gives them precisely what they, I would assume, would not want from a bike. Impracticality ::)
-
Yes, thanks guys, we're just trying to tell the truth about how these exploding cigar four striker MX bikes have almost ruined the sport. The 2-4 project bike is a 2001 YZ400F frame with a '79 RM250 motor stuck in it, fit like a glove. The most difficult part was cutting and re-welding the expansion chamber into a down pipe (we love down pipes). It will weigh around 210-214 lbs and put out 38 horsepower.
It should haul ass, and become a template for all those poor bastards with a blown up four stroke sitting in their garage that they can't afford to fix.
We should have it posted tonight sometime. Rick did it for off-road.com, so you can see it there too (part 1). Keep the faith guys, KTM is still pushing two stroke technology, and a direct injected two cycle is right around the bend. It will combine a four stroke type lower end, with a two stroke top end, but eliminate the loop scavenging with a high pressure injector and a variable exhaust port.
Thanks for reading!
Matt
superhunky.com
Hey Matt,
Great to see you on the two stroke site. Its great to see hardcore moto industry guys trying to do whats right for our beloved sport. You are doing a great job and making a difference. Keep at it. It WILL happen.
-
Ya they are specially tuned, high end bikes right now, but who knows what the future could hold :)
Agreed.You'll have to wait for the first ride to find out if they are "fixable with simple hand tools and a little mechanical expertise"
Let us know ;) :D
-
120, maybe a 130 if they even still make em. but geeze it would be monsterous, and probly be tall enough to throw of the geometry and give you some head shake.
Talk about traction control.
-
Yes, thanks guys, we're just trying to tell the truth about how these exploding cigar four striker MX bikes have almost ruined the sport. The 2-4 project bike is a 2001 YZ400F frame with a '79 RM250 motor stuck in it, fit like a glove. The most difficult part was cutting and re-welding the expansion chamber into a down pipe (we love down pipes). It will weigh around 210-214 lbs and put out 38 horsepower.
It should haul ass, and become a template for all those poor bastards with a blown up four stroke sitting in their garage that they can't afford to fix.
We should have it posted tonight sometime. Rick did it for off-road.com, so you can see it there too (part 1). Keep the faith guys, KTM is still pushing two stroke technology, and a direct injected two cycle is right around the bend. It will combine a four stroke type lower end, with a two stroke top end, but eliminate the loop scavenging with a high pressure injector and a variable exhaust port.
Thanks for reading!
Matt
superhunky.com
Wow Matt is in the MFing House!
Welcome aboard Matt. I look forward to seeing a full report on frankenbike.
I think it will be cool, Not intended to compete with Service Honda, Just get some working class guys back on the trail.
-
Down pipe.
On a relatively modern frame.
So, if it's built properly, to work well, the divergent cone and belly will be under the frame.
Unless they are limiting the travel - by means that make the units bottom earlier, it will have less chance of survival than a sun burnt snowflake.
Modern , long travel bikes leave about an inch / 2inches at the most between the frame rails and flat ground.
I like what they are doing, but, unless they are limiting the travel, or it's a flat track bike, it sure isn't remotely practical with a down pipe. So, building for a style they like = impractical bike.
Gives them precisely what they, I would assume, would not want from a bike. Impracticality ::)
When suspension travel started getting longer in the mid-to-late '70s they started running into this problem, and a fairly common solution (or rather, what Maico did) was to let the engine be a little higher in the frame, or even create a spot in the cases for the pipe to partially fit. This allowed the pipe to be partly between the frame rails rather than entirely below them. It'd still be hairy to deal with if it were done to the old standards, but considering they're putting an old engine in a new frame, I would presume they're doing a lot of inventive work anyway, so mounting the engine quite high indeed might not be out of the question. The main disadvantage with this route, and one of the major reasons down-pipes were phased out, is the tendency this has to raise the center of gravity of the bike. If I were determined to put a down-pipe in a modern frame (I wouldn't) that's how I'd do it.
-
Down pipe.
On a relatively modern frame.
So, if it's built properly, to work well, the divergent cone and belly will be under the frame.
Unless they are limiting the travel - by means that make the units bottom earlier, it will have less chance of survival than a sun burnt snowflake.
Modern , long travel bikes leave about an inch / 2inches at the most between the frame rails and flat ground.
I like what they are doing, but, unless they are limiting the travel, or it's a flat track bike, it sure isn't remotely practical with a down pipe. So, building for a style they like = impractical bike.
Gives them precisely what they, I would assume, would not want from a bike. Impracticality ::)
When suspension travel started getting longer in the mid-to-late '70s they started running into this problem, and a fairly common solution (or rather, what Maico did) was to let the engine be a little higher in the frame, or even create a spot in the cases for the pipe to partially fit. This allowed the pipe to be partly between the frame rails rather than entirely below them. It'd still be hairy to deal with if it were done to the old standards, but considering they're putting an old engine in a new frame, I would presume they're doing a lot of inventive work anyway, so mounting the engine quite high indeed might not be out of the question. The main disadvantage with this route, and one of the major reasons down-pipes were phased out, is the tendency this has to raise the center of gravity of the bike. If I were determined to put a down-pipe in a modern frame (I wouldn't) that's how I'd do it.
,
If they insist on a down pipe, it puts it into the category of a bike like a chopper.
I worked through the mid /late seventies (@ Competition Development - OZs version of FMF, and the importers of Fox Shox etc) during the whole LTR revolution, that's what much of my earlier fabrication experience came from. I know old school bikes, right through to the very latest.
So, put a down pipe on, then lift the engine - geeze that's going to really help the suspension with such a stuff up with the relationship between the countershaft, swingarm pivot and rear axle.
Maybe they intend to do a down pipe version of the YZ495 works Air Hammer Flat Pipe, that Carlquist etc. used?
Whichever way I look at it, it's a complete stuff up of what's Quite A Good Idea. Just make /modify an up pipe., Hunky and Co.
Here's an idea - they could do something like a Snail Pipe - that would be something different that would at least enable them to have a fully usable bike. And not just a styling exercise.
I love the simplicity of an AC 2t engine - I will regret selling my 490 for the rest of my life (though I'm currently pursuing one that I've found ;D) .
I'm even thinking of putting a AC 480 top end on a later model set of CR500 cases, in a new frame. That certainly appeals to me. So I'm far from being against hybrids, I've made a lot of them over the years. But they've been made to perform and work well. Not be slaves to a styling idea.
-
Here's a convertion for sale in kiwi land.
Yamaberg 490. :)
(http://i864.photobucket.com/albums/ab207/tmkiwi/149848362.jpg)
Heres the link to Add.
http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Motorbikes/Motorbikes/Dirt-bikes/auction-349364989.htm (http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Motorbikes/Motorbikes/Dirt-bikes/auction-349364989.htm)
-
its cheap too.
-
Nice bike.
-
That Yamaberg is awesome. You guys know that Berg is making two strokes now?
I hope to have the oppertnity to test one soon. I rode a 03 big bike, the 4 something a while back. The ergos and the suspension were fabulous.
-
Yeah, since a four stroke doesn't really have any room for a nice two stroke up-pipe, we went with the down pipe. Fits between the frame rails, no loss of clearance. Rick's in the final jetting phaze now, running strong, just needs to be dialed in. Suspension on the stiff side. Going to Gil at WP for a shock, have Noleen do the forks. Should be plush and fast.
-
Fits between the frame rails. Okay, I'll be interested to see how you guys pulled that off. Anytime you have pictures ready, won't be soon enough!
-
In Belgium, a guy put a 700cc 2T Zabel engine (almost same as Maico 700) in a 2004/2005
Husaberg rolling chassis. They make a good 2T donor chassis!
At first they had to tow-start it behind a car, after it's warmed up, you can start it by kickstart;
Video0039 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mt_KY_ES2DQ#)
Moto start.wmv (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hcnREq_o-Y#)
-
Yeah, since a four stroke doesn't really have any room for a nice two stroke up-pipe, we went with the down pipe. Fits between the frame rails, no loss of clearance. Rick's in the final jetting phaze now, running strong, just needs to be dialed in. Suspension on the stiff side. Going to Gil at WP for a shock, have Noleen do the forks. Should be plush and fast.
A little secret for you there anit no DI two strokes around the corner. Just make a decent up pipe the true test of pipe making skills. Cutting and shittinga modern stamped out pipe is pretty much crueling performance. There will be a VERY quick 250 based engine out and about soon. ;)
(http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s297/Lozza85_2007/006-2.jpg)
-
That's a badass looking pipe on that honda.
Someone told me the other day all new TMs will be Direct Injected? I haven't looked it up yet, but I haven't heard anything here so I didn't think it was true.
-
A little secret for you there anit no DI two strokes around the corner.
I like how you keep saying that 2T.
Just over one hundred years ago man couldn't fly.
60 years ago man would never go to the moon.
20 years ago GP teams were talking about DI.
14 years ago the first DI outboards came out. ( they were crap ). Chief among the problems was lack of computer power.
9 years ago they had the problems sorted.
Fast forward to today and you have DI scooter's and DI outboards are very reliable.
Do you think that there are not some very clever people out there that are working on the issues for Dirt/Road bikes.
I know about the issue's with throttle response but that's not something that wont be overcome.
BRP/Rotax & Orbital will get it right. ;D
I just hope that a manufactor has the ball's to release it.
-
A little secret for you there anit no DI two strokes around the corner.
I like how you keep saying that 2T.
Just over one hundred years ago man couldn't fly.
60 years ago man would never go to the moon.
20 years ago GP teams were talking about DI.
14 years ago the first DI outboards came out. ( they were crap ). Chief among the problems was lack of computer power.
9 years ago they had the problems sorted.
Fast forward to today and you have DI scooter's and DI outboards are very reliable.
Do you think that there are not some very clever people out there that are working on the issues for Dirt/Road bikes.
I know about the issue's with throttle response but that's not something that wont be overcome.
BRP/Rotax & Orbital will get it right. ;D
I just hope that a manufactor has the ball's to release it.
As TMKIWI says, DI ain't around the corner,it's been around for years.I'd be willing to put $$ down that either KTM or TM will have it within the next two model years-more likely KTM due to their resources.
-
One of the major magazines had an article about both KTM and TM having DI 2T's for 2012. ;D
-
I forgot all about this, but a guy on our local SW PA dual sport forum built this last year. A "newer" ATK/Cannondale frame with a 1989 ATK 406 air cooled engine ;D :
(http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l15/cmsprofessor/Dual%20Sport%20Trips/IMG_0263.jpg)
-
Yeah, since a four stroke doesn't really have any room for a nice two stroke up-pipe, we went with the down pipe.
I don't see how this is at all correct, unless you are determined that it's either to be a definate 'UP' pipe (like what is shown on the XR chassis with the 2t AC Honda engine), or a down pipe. 2ts for about 20 years have had 'low boy' pipes - mid height pipes. And there is room aplenty for that type of pipe. Perhaps that is what you are calling a 'down pipe'?
From the picture in your article, it looks like you've used the 06 YZF250 chassis (wrong on that, I checked further and it's the older 426 chassis, so more room again).These dont' have any form of drop tank, and perhaps a trim of some barrel fins (and it's easy to add length to other fins), and a different KS lever to clear the end of the convergent cone, is all that you need. I've fitted a short , Gas Gas lever to a CR500 knuckle for my purposes, so it's an easy enough thing to do if you can't find another bikes lever to fit directly on.
The engine doesn't look high, so, if it is a low pipe you're doing, you've either got a long header (perhaps ovalized) under the engine, or you've a pan cake divergent cone, belly section and convergent cone.
Although, you could be playing semantics and doing a snail pipe, with the stinger and muffler under / exiting the engine.
I'm waiting with much interest to see the final thing - without a doubt, a great bike could resuilt - many of the AC 250s (and other sizes) were wonderful engines, that could easily match up to a modern 4t, whilst still being as simple as an axe.
-
I forgot all about this, but a guy on our local SW PA dual sport forum built this last year. A "newer" ATK/Cannondale frame with a 1989 ATK 406 air cooled engine ;D :
(http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l15/cmsprofessor/Dual%20Sport%20Trips/IMG_0263.jpg)
Doesn't that engine look tiny in that chassis, even with the AC fins ;D.
Can you scrape up any other pics of this bike?
-
Yes I can:
This first one is with the 4T engine in it still.
(http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l15/cmsprofessor/ATK%20450%20to%20406%20Conversion/IMG_0218.jpg)
(http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l15/cmsprofessor/ATK%20450%20to%20406%20Conversion/IMG_0348.jpg)
(http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l15/cmsprofessor/ATK%20450%20to%20406%20Conversion/IMG_0473.jpg)
(http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l15/cmsprofessor/ATK%20450%20to%20406%20Conversion/IMG_2235.jpg)
(http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l15/cmsprofessor/IMG_2973.jpg)
(http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l15/cmsprofessor/IMG_2985.jpg)
(http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l15/cmsprofessor/ATK%20450%20to%20406%20Conversion/IMG_0180.jpg)
(http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l15/cmsprofessor/ATK%20450%20to%20406%20Conversion/IMG_3019.jpg)
(http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l15/cmsprofessor/Dual%20Sport%20Trips/IMG_0260.jpg)
-
Here's a picture of Super Hunky's finished bike.
(http://i864.photobucket.com/albums/ab207/tmkiwi/DSCN4345.jpg)
-
Here's a picture of Super Hunky's finished bike.
(http://i864.photobucket.com/albums/ab207/tmkiwi/DSCN4345.jpg)
more pics!........ MORE PICS!!!
-
Now that Cannondale 406 is cool!
The only thing I'm a bit concerned with is how low the CS centre is against the SA centre, a bit low by about 4/5mm (and I'm in favour of low CS centre heights - most of the blokes doing AFs roll the engine back and have it higher than the std donor bike, inducing a lot of squat and harshness to the bike), but that position he chose may well have been the std C/Dale position - they did try a lot of different things, and that position might put the longest, 'through 3 centre lines" in the middle of the travel, which might have been what they were going for?
Bloody hell, they had a lot of bracing at the shock tower / side beam junction!!!!!
The 406 engine could be made into a very nice thing, and the shock geometry on the CDale was very good. If well set up , that would be a great bike to ride / have. Though I bet it picked up a bit of weight over the std. chassis.
Thanks for putting the pics up.
TMKIWI:
I went to Off-Road.com, and found only the January posting on the Yamazuki. Where did you get that pic?
A Down pipe it is - oh my............. It would last about 10 seconds on the way into my local single track. Perhaps it's intended for flat track racing? :-\
-
more pics!........ MORE PICS!!!
Only one of the bike finished that I found on their site.
-
What would be nice is a video of the RM hybrid in action and I'm also curious what the machine weighs? In a strange way Super Hunky and crew may be on to something,I like the look of this project. :D
I'm also curious what that ATK/Cannondale weighs and like the idea behind that one as well.
-
I definitely think they're onto something, despite what people might think because of my loathing of the down pipe. I lived through those damned things and Never want to go back to them.
ACing could be very effective, if , say ceramic (or some such material) barrel , pistons and head surfaces could be done at reasonable prices. As it is, an older AC motor can be great - I recently swapped over bikes with a mate that had an RM 400 engine in a steel CR frame, and it was a lovely motor to ride - the whole bike was very a good thing.
-
A little secret for you there anit no DI two strokes around the corner.
I like how you keep saying that 2T.
Just over one hundred years ago man couldn't fly.
60 years ago man would never go to the moon.
20 years ago GP teams were talking about DI.
14 years ago the first DI outboards came out. ( they were crap ). Chief among the problems was lack of computer power.
9 years ago they had the problems sorted.
Fast forward to today and you have DI scooter's and DI outboards are very reliable.
Do you think that there are not some very clever people out there that are working on the issues for Dirt/Road bikes.
I know about the issue's with throttle response but that's not something that wont be overcome.
BRP/Rotax & Orbital will get it right. ;D
I just hope that a manufactor has the ball's to release it.
i don't understand why people are hanging out for DI, my carb works just fine.
-
bearoso all I can say is he has been riding it for a year now and as far as I know other than some problems with the kicker he hasn't had any problems. He is cool guy in his early 60's. I don't think he rides it hard, but he rides it often I know.
-
With DI the fuel is introduced into the combustion chamber after the exhaust port is closed,potentially meaning a significant increase in bottom end power,along with better fuel economy. :D
-
TMKIWI:
I went to Off-Road.com, and found only the January posting on the Yamazuki. Where did you get that pic?
Here it is.
http://articles.superhunky.com/4/259 (http://articles.superhunky.com/4/259)
-
bearoso all I can say is he has been riding it for a year now and as far as I know other than some problems with the kicker he hasn't had any problems. He is cool guy in his early 60's. I don't think he rides it hard, but he rides it often I know.
Hey Coop,
Not knocking it in any way!
I do think that the low CS Was a part of the CDale thing - I think they tried for the tightest point being virtually in the middle of the travel - a fair and probably good thing to do, as, with sag, you wouldn't be right on the cusp of having the chain torque really pulling the swingarm up.
And the comment about the frame weight is just on the huge amount of , what appears to be, std bracing. Mind you, being predominantly bicycle frame manufactures (like , me, but a million times bigger) they might have been using very light gauge material, and went for bracing instead of mass.
I assume the alloy box is the airbox / plenum chamber, and the airfilter or another, interim tube attaches to the spigot? And the tank / seat make up the airfilter housing? It's got great height, and the plenum chamber is so big, the motor would breathe incredibly well.
It looks like a great bike - love it!
-
I didn't think you were knocking it. It's not my bike so honestly I wouldn't mind if you did. Heck I don't care if people knock my own bikes :D . I am pretty easy going.
Yeah I am pretty sure that was part of the airbox/plenum. He had to make his own and I don't think he too bad. I do believe this is the first project like this he ever tackled lol. Nothing like starting small and working your way up. ;D