Two Stroke Motocross
Two Stroke Motocross Forum => General Two Stroke Talk => Topic started by: burn1986 on September 01, 2010, 02:30:20 PM
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This is a summary of the Petition Comments. I made it a point to read each and every one I feel very appreciative of those who left comments, and I these stats will probably comprise most of my follow up with the AMA. I didn't make a category for all the comments, so I divided them into the most common ones:
Number of Comments - 708 out of 2187 signatures
Two Strokes and Rule Change Good for the Sport - 145 or 20%
Cheaper to Maintain and more Economical - 187 or 26%
Equal Displacements - 74 or 16%
Less Sound Problems - 16 or 2%
Displacement of 200 and 400 for 2-strokes - 7 or 1%
Displacement of 175 and 350 for 2-strokes - 9 or 1%
Rule Change would benefit privateers - 39 or 6%
Would provide an Option for racers - 22 or 3%
Would help or affect Families ?? 19 or 3%
That totals out to 499 replies out of 198, so 209 replies did not fall into these categories. I wish I could get all these replies in front of the AMA but here are a few:
"Help keep motocross affordable bring back 2-strokes, I have been in this sport since 1971 as a racer & working in the motorcycle industry 4-strokes have killed affordable .The cost have risen so high that a young person doesn't have a chance anymore, in the better days there was a core group 18-30 yrs old that are not involved in our sport because they can't afford the dreaded cost of 4-strokes.the noise has lost our riding area??s, I could go on & on.
Mark Lowry
lifetime ama member 737182"
"It would be great to see the 2 stroke machines catch a little break. My son started racing at the age of 15 and we run 2 stroke machines and it is special in many ways. It is more economical to run, simple to work on and he has learned mechanical skills. Racing should be kept simple and made economical for the people that want to get into the sport. We have seen many kids have problems with 4 stroke machines and just simply can't afford to fix them.
So please give them a boost!!"
"Tired of seeing kids quit that can't afford to fix their bikes!"
"I feel this proposed displacement change is marginal at best. While I agree it's better than nothing, it's a start. I've been just about driven out of the sport due to cost of operation for the 250cc four stroke. Unfortunately, if my son wants to be competitive, we have no choice at the moment other than to ride a 4 stroke."
"The four-stroke movement has pushed away hundreds of riders here in the Texas market. Away from tracks, and out of the dealerships. I see it every weekend, 4-stroke blows up, and avg family can not afford to rebuild. So they move on and find other sports to get involved with. There has to be options here....and allowing the 2-stroke to have solid ground, will give opportunity to the avg rider/racer that enjoys the simplicity and economic friendliness of racing a 2-Stroke."
"Both of my kids no longer race, once they moved out of the 85cc class, we couldn't afford to race 250f's. I know, I know, you can race a 125 in that class, but would YOU bring a knife to a gun fight? Now we are just fans of the sport."
??? You, the AMA has cost my family a fair chance to be able to afford to race. 3 boys, 3 4strokes = losing our house just to keep the damned 4 strokes alive and well??
"4 strokes cost too much to keep running at a regional and privateer level. You 4 smoke guys are killing the sport. I love 2 strokes and if I cannot get or race them. You will not see our family at any more events. I spend up to 15k a year in racing fees so if ama does not want my contribution then that??s fine but I know a ton of people that feel the same way..."
I also posted this on Vitalmx so DC will get a look at it too The Petition is still going strong - 2189 and counting
http://www.gopetition.com/petition/38076.html (http://www.gopetition.com/petition/38076.html)
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Hold on, aren't most of these people in the comments talking about the costs for amateur racing, where it's already 250-250F? How many of these parents are trying to pay their kids' way to battling with James Stewart?
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JETZcorp the problem is the sheep herd mentality... they see the "pro's" all on thumpers... so of course they think (because they've been told so many times by the MFG'ers and the media) that the only way to be competitive is to be on a thumper. Plus you have to remember, many of the kids riding thumpers are not that talented, the bike masks the talent. They can get away with more mistakes then on a smoker. All it takes is for someone on a clapped out smoker to show them at the next amateur race, that 2 strokes are alive and kicking their arse.
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Yeah, the obvious response is "why don't they just race a 250 2-stroke?" Maybe they feel these bikes are too fast or not competitive, or their are a limited number of 2-strokes available?
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Also, the manufacturers won't build modern 2-strokes because of the current rules for their pros to run at the 4 stroke handicap. The trickle down effect is no 2 strokes made to sell. No-brainer
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I appretiate all the work and time Burn1986,but I don,t see how 2,187 signatures are going to change anything. If it was 80,000 signatures, same result. On thetruckersreport.com 1 post will get 95,000 posts. If we start a 2-st. series, that will create a 2-st. boom, and this site would benefit, 2,000 people on here instead of 3 to 30.
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Well, good point. I'm not sure what result this will have, but I hope it will be that the AMA raises the limits set out in the petition and the proposals. Beyond this, ...
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You could all move to NZ. ;)
Then there is no problem.
125cc 2 Stroke class
MX2 126cc-250cc 2 Stroke & 250 4 Stroke
MX1 251cc- Open 2 & 4 Stroke.Which includes Service Honda's if you like. ;D
Come on America get with the times. :-X
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What burn1986 is doing is great regardless of what some may think or say.Us 2-stroke fans whether racers or just weekend riders will benefit from what he has accomplished already not to mention I have quite a few riding buddies as well as family members who ride 2-strokes as well as 4-strokes and they are all willing to sign burns petition.I just have to get to their homes for a visit & MAKE SURE they get on TSM & sign the petition!So far I signed the petition and have had 3 more people sign it,but I still have about 20 more people that told me they would be more than happy to sign it but I feel like I must stop by their homes for a friendly visit just to remind them how important burns petition is not only for the sport but also for the 2-stroke motorcycle in general..!
LONG LIVE THE SMOKERS...... ;)
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Just as an fyi, many areas do not run AMA rules, so they are not using the amateur rules. Here in texas Grand National series, it is still 250 2 stroke against 450farts. Also, as a point, it is just rediculous thinking about that. Here they use these rules, here they use those rules, here they use this other rule. WTF, doesn't anyone up there think it sounds stupid? After 40 years of having everyone on the same page. Then poof, it's all over the board. Just depends on what the series runners, decide is fair to them. Just GAY! not that there is anything wrong with that. (seinfeld)
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One thing that I think is worth noting, is that although the petition has 2,000-and-some signatures, there's a perspective to put that in. When I was voting in that great outdoors idea thingy, the really big ideas had, like 1200 net votes, MAX. And that's something set up by the Federal Government to be presented to the President of the United States himself. I think given that this petition, which was set by one man in his spare time, has absolutely blitzed the things in the Government program, is a good sign indeed. Unless you start buying airtime on radio and TV and spamming Facebook with ads, I don't think it's reasonable to get something like 80,000 signatures, and hopefully the AMA would realize that.
What would be useful, though, would be to see signatures for and signatures against. Because looking at the 2000+ signatures there are now, a big-four rep could easily say, "Yeah, but what if there were 10,000 people who saw this thing and thought it was total bullshit?" And we could say, "True, but what if there were only 15 people who saw this thing and thought it was total bullshit?" The point is, all this petition is telling us that X number of people want measure B (for Burn) to go through. But it doesn't tell you what percentage or ratio of riders want that. And ultimately, I think the AMA is more of a game of percentages. I am fairly confident that we could pull some rather big percentages to our side, if there was a mechanism to demonstrate these figures. And if we didn't, and it turns out that only 0.5% of riders want this thing enacted, then we'd just have to go to the backup plan, just as we'll have to IF this petition fails. But, I think it's all a bit too late for that, and I don't know how you'd go about doing it, anyway.
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There's a vote for that exact thing from someone on vitalmx for the last couple of years. It has both sides. But either way, Burns is the one doing this, and DC and those up above already know about it and are avoiding answering the true petition format, just keep on using the 250 vs 250F example. They never questioned a 450 2 stroke in lap times vs a 450F. Wonder why that is? LOL Only the good examples are used to kill the idea, not the fact that a 450F would still probably be better than a 450 2 stroke on lap times.
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Very good points.
At the worst, the petition will at least generate some thoughts as to why the number of rider entries is decreasing. Maybe I could do a comparison of this. Of course this would involve MXSports who are the bigest opposers to this.
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I took the liberty to post some comments on "TON" Texas Off Road Network about the petition. Check it out.
http://www.texasoffroad.net/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/477825/2_Strokes_are_back#Post477825 (http://www.texasoffroad.net/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/477825/2_Strokes_are_back#Post477825)
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Good job TX!
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Yep, Texas Off Road Network is a good forum. I signed up and have posted several times. Man, its neat to see people passing the word on. I will be contacting Al Ludington next week. Hopefully, the road racing schedule will be wrapped up, and we can enter into some real discussions and see where we're at on this thing. Of course, I will get insight from TSM if any decisions or ideas are presented.
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So, is Ralph Jones a member of this site? What log in name does he use? What does he ride?
Are you allowed back at Vital MX yet ?
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Yeah, we have a lot going on at work and we use a processing computer (I work law enforcement, so we "book in" at two computers). I showed one guy how to sign up and everything started from there). I have told several people about what was going on. There's more people working here right now since there is several operations going on. This will end this coming week with the fiscal year end and the temporary officers will head back to their permanent duty stations. I haven't posted on vital since this.
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I work law enforcement
Can't you just arrest everyone for racing a 4 stroke?
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Ha, I wish. If only...
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It's just wrong.
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Hey Burn,
Whats the latest, everything has been very quiet on this front for a while. Very interested to know of any updates or news !!
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I haven't heard anything yet. I've emailed and left a phone message last week. I will do the same thing today and let everyone know what I hear. The petition is right around 2715 BTW.
This was the last email I received from Al Lud. on 09/29:
Reply |Al Ludington to Jeff, me
show details Sep 29
Mark,
We have just culminated our 2010 road race season at Barber. If you haven??t seen it on TV, you should. Just incredible! I have one more flat track race and a technical seminar to finish my season. After those events I can get down to the meat and potatoes of the off season. That would be firming up rules and regulations for the 2011 season and beyond. I appreciate your patience and diligence on this project as well as your kind remarks. Please give me a couple more weeks and I??ll follow this through to a resolution, one way or the other.
Al Ludington
Technical Director
AMA Pro Racing
Since then I emailed him on Oct 20th and today. I expect o hear from him soon. If I don't hear anything by early next week, then I will call.
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Here's an email I got from him today:
Hi Mark,
Sorry for the delay. I saw you called and have you on my ??to call back list? along with many others. I??ve been a little set back by the death of my Mom. It wasn??t entirely unexpected but none the less there was a lot of things to handle. To be honest I am not getting a lot of response one way or the other from MX Sports or Kevin Crowther who handles Supercross. I need to talk to them about some other stuff that is kind of parallel so I will reach out to them on Monday. It seems that they don??t want to rock the boat of or traditional supporters but that is just me guessing. As you know, I am all for an idea that would allow us to showcase more talent on the race track. If the super stars of tomorrow are being held back because they can??t afford to play, then that??s a bad thing.
I??ll give you a shout the first of the week and let you know what I hear. Thanks.
Al Ludington
Technical Director
AMA Pro Racing
Hopefully, I'll have some good news next week. Does anyone know Kevin Crowther? Good, bad? Obviously if anyone has any ideas or suggestions, I am definitely open at this point.