Two Stroke Motocross
Two Stroke Motocross Forum => General Two Stroke Talk => Topic started by: JohnN on August 19, 2010, 02:45:17 PM
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Finally had the heart to write something....
http://projecttwo50.com/2010/08/unadilla-update-2/ (http://projecttwo50.com/2010/08/unadilla-update-2/)
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I really feel for you guys, hope you can resolve this port scuffing scenario, very surprising as to the sophistication of the engine. I am sure you will work this out.
Fab.
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Keep up the the great work and go get em at southwick.
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I can understand your dissapointment, but this is all part of the learning and development curve, and will make you better in the future. Go back and get everything ready for Southwick, and come out and exceed anyones expectations at Southwick. I, and everyone here has complete confidence in you guys. As they say, third times a charm !!!
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Thanks for writing that John. While we understand how disappointed you guys are, pick your heads up and move forward! There will be setbacks at the start of any project, especially one as huge of an undertaking as Project Two 50.
Piston scuffing is caused by excessive heat, which often times comes from either lack of oil in the fuel or lean carburetor jetting. If you have ruled out the mix, look towards the carb before the next race.
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Thanks for the report John.I won't throw in my mechanical opinion as the usual causes are well known but given how you guys are running the engine,the cause may be something altogether different.That said,unplanned mechanical failure with an unknown cause is a great opportunity to learn more.In a twisted sort of way-I live for that crap.It's odd it hadn't happened previously and I can just imagine how much more likely it would be at Southwick.
Regardless,we all appreciate the tremendous effort of everyone involved with Project 250.
If you don't manage to qualify for any this year,or blow up at all of them-you've disappointed nobody that matters.
If you give up-you disappoint many.
Thanks again-and go get 'em 8)
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What the hell, $h!t happens and it happens to the best of 'em. Live and learn and come back fighting. You're gaining more ground every day, keep up the hard work ... any more words of encouragement needed?
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At the risk of stating the bleeding obvious, that some changes will have to be made. It is impossible to keep returning to AMA Pro level meetings and failing to qualify, goodwill,finances and morale will dry up rapidly. My advice would be to step back to the next rung down of competition. Then seek to completely dominate that competition. This will give you a chance to become a cohesive team effort both technicaly and operationaly, without the added pressure of the big time spot light.
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At the risk of stating the bleeding obvious, that some changes will have to be made. It is impossible to keep returning to AMA Pro level meetings and failing to qualify, goodwill,finances and morale will dry up rapidly. My advice would be to step back to the next rung down of competition. Then seek to completely dominate that competition. This will give you a chance to become a cohesive team effort both technicaly and operationaly, without the added pressure of the big time spot light.
Which is exactly my idea with the Candadian motocross racing series. The team could work out the bugs, and gain a lot of progress. That said, I think you should continue on with the AMA races, you are already in two races, so you may as well finish the next ones planned. Good luck!
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Thanks for the update John, we all appreciate it. Also, we all know that this is a work in progress and that there are bound to be set-backs along the way. As long as you learn from them and keep on pushing, good will come. I no way do I feel that Project Two 50 let anyone down!!! That bike is going to be a monster at the 'Wick!!
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At the risk of stating the bleeding obvious, that some changes will have to be made. It is impossible to keep returning to AMA Pro level meetings and failing to qualify, goodwill,finances and morale will dry up rapidly. My advice would be to step back to the next rung down of competition. Then seek to completely dominate that competition. This will give you a chance to become a cohesive team effort both technicaly and operationaly, without the added pressure of the big time spot light.
I'd disagree with that.The exposure alone would only happen at this level.Besides,why strive at mediocrity.Cherry picking proves nothing.Besides,the team certainly has the look at the races of a professionally run effort and this can only benefit the cause in the long run.
Having said that,I'd love to see them run the Canadian nats,just because I could see them at Riverglade :)
Keep us updated please on what you find with the engine John.
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I Hate sounding like a dick, But like last time when the clutch cover broke I stated can we get some spare parts? I would be will to contribute to the cause!!! Years ago my brother and I raced snomobiles on kind of a semi pro level and we had extra jugs, pistons cranks,and heads on hand and yes we had situations just like dilla and with the right parts we were always back in the game.Hard luck is always waiting to bite you in the ass... Nothing is easy especially racing
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Tall order but I think a broken in full race backup engine is needed. No way to rebuild that fast. One more expense to add to the learning curve. Think about it, the factory rigs are loaded with any part or component so nothing can slow them down except a failure during the 2 moto's. Project 2 fifty can't have all that but will need an engine, forks, and shock the same calibur as the race bike as backups. Duct tape will keep the rest of the bike in the game. I have so many stories about how duct tape saved the day.
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Yep,spare replica engine and suspension.So if you guys want to get donations of $15,000.00 together the team would happily purchase these parts i am sure.Thanks in advance for the contributions.
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That cylinder was lined with MicroBlue, right? And you managed to scuff that?!! Jesus, that bike must have been ripping holes through space-time in order to accomplish something so incredible. My knowledge is limited, but I hear that the incoming gasoline and oil itself does a lot of heat absorption, and I'm thinking that maybe jetting the bike into unexplored territory might have been the downfall, particularly considering the leaf-blower test that tells us the mix ratio is okay. But of course, Project Two-50 has people much more knowledgeable than I working on these things, so I guess there's not much input I can provide that hasn't been thought of before.
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Hey John,
No-one got hurt, The bike can be re-built. Getting your team up on the podium is the best revenge!
Get the guys to put together the best bike you can and go for it! Maybe the readership/members here will chip in and help get some spares in the trailer.
To be honest I can hardly keep my bikes running let alone service them on a racing schedule, the cost has got to be astronomical.
Food lodging tools fuel oil insurance entrance fees machine work suspension work ignition clutches tires tubes (or tubeless) plugs gaskets bars brake rotors brake shoes cables grips safety gear boots gloves bars consumables am I getting close? and that's just the race bike, So I can see how having a back-up race bike might be a bit of a stretch.. let alone a practice bike,spare parts,and all the equipment to run a team.
I went on a bit of a rant over on the 250 sight, and I don't usually post much at all.. you get what you pay for :-\
I think for a crew of "Working Men" to have gotten this far is fantastic!
I know What Burt Munroe would do. ;D ("The Worlds Fastest Indian")
Tuck\o/
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I Hate sounding like a dick, But like last time when the clutch cover broke I stated can we get some spare parts? I would be will to contribute to the cause!!! Years ago my brother and I raced snomobiles on kind of a semi pro level and we had extra jugs, pistons cranks,and heads on hand and yes we had situations just like dilla and with the right parts we were always back in the game.Hard luck is always waiting to bite you in the ass... Nothing is easy especially racing
You must have more $$ than me GMONEY.A new crank for my A. Cat is $2400 :o(and I need one :( )
Spares are beaucoup $$ as you know and sometimes what you have to work with for your race effort doesn't allow you enough for much that way.Besides,usually what you break is the one thing you don't have
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Besides,usually what you break is the one thing you don't have
This is true, but what is also true is what breaks is what you have 10 spare of at home. The Racing Gods dictate , whatever breaks is what you don't have , what you have spare you will never need, what you bring you never use, what breaks, have no spare with you, is at home, and it will be the last thing you looked at thinking "I'll never need that". ;D
Spares are just like insurance, it's the only product you buy hoping to never use.
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At some stage, It might be advisable to back off from pushing the edge - breaking through it / exceeding it, can cost way too much. Not just in dollars. Even major corporations / race teams know how to take a step back, to avoid going over the edge.
Perhaps just the simple action of pulling back a bit from such a lean oil (on oil) / fuel ratio is warranted. Also, you might be pushing just too far to the lean side on the jetting, in the search for more power.
Backing up a bit on both / either, may be all that it takes to keep it going. Picking up on the inlet and exhaust port is a good indication of a lack of lubrication, or faulty coating, port edge finishing etc etc - goodness only knows from my end, but there's a problem to be solved. And I'm sure the talented people involved will get it sorted out.
The bike, should have more than enough to be competitive, judging by what I've seen so far - though, it will be considerably more hyper than a 450. A high power, highly strung 250 2t is harder for the rider to manage than a 450. And that's what most people, on both sides of the 2t / 4t fence, seem to forget, or avoid facing up to. I've missed any same day, comparative dyno runs, if there have been any posted up that might show me otherwise. Remember what the MX Panda did last year in the first moto at Washougal? On what was confirmed to be a bone stock 450 Honda with just a pipe, by the tear down/ scrutineering team, for an example of what can be done with a 450. We're dealing with that mongrel capacity handicap, that, I feel, now no amount of tuning will allow a 250 to overcome. Unless you've got a top 10 rider on it. Sure, you could pull out 60+ HP from a 250 2t single, but you wouldn't be able to use it on the dirt.
It's a big achievement to qualify for a national at Any main MX nation national. Perhaps that might be beyond the current riders capabilities. And this is Not me putting the bloke down, before some get their knickers in a twist. But there's a bunch of internet bench racers out there gleefully pointing out the disparity between Project 250s times, and the times that are needed to get into the event.
Toning the engine tune down , adding a bit of oil, backing off on how lean you go on the jetting, or anything that keeps the bike going, and / or not going over the edge of disaster, might make what is a Tremendously difficult thing to achieve , that of just qualifying for a national, easier for the rider.
I applaud the enthusiasm, and dedication of you blokes, and I hope you get into a national soon - just doing that would be an achievement for you and the rider. We here would recognize that. But to really get attention, you'd need to get some top 20 results. As it seems, that anything much below the podium, gets nothing but criticism for the riders out there.
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Thank you for all the support. It is appreciated.
Yes there will always be those who criticize. but think about that for a minute, it's easy to be critical of something. Even easier if you don't agree with what someone is doing ( say a 4 stroke fan that hates 2 strokes) which I'm sure that almost everyone here has run into either on the Internet or in person.
I could care less about those folks... they mean nothing to me. I do care about what I do and what I'm a part of and try to do my very best to accomplish the goals that I set for myself.
When you take on a project like this, there are many people that want to help and offer solutions. Sometimes that is a step in the right direction and sometimes it's three steps back... unfortunately when you are working within a budget and you are getting help from companies, you try to utilize all the good stuff that you can. But as I said before that can backfire... so you have to make decisions that don't always work out.
With all that said, I had the immense pleasure of being introduced to Eyvind Boyesen at Unadilla. What an amazing man!
He offered to help us out. Now when someone offers to do something, sometimes they mean it and follow through and sometimes ... well it just doesn't work out.
Lucky for Project Two 50 Eyvind was not only a man of his word, but went above and beyond anything we could ever imagined or hoped for. Today Mike traveled down to his home (about a 4 hour drive) to do some testing. They spent the whole day making changes and tuning the bike.
Eyvind ported a brand new cylinder and gave it to Mike, which is now on the bike. They tried many different combinations of reed valves, pipes, jetting and more. Mike said that Eyvind would listen to the bike and make suggestions for changes and each time the bike seems to get better.
They used a stop watch as the gold standard for each test. Now the track was something that was out-of-this-world, lap times over 3 minutes. Plus it's the same track that Hannah and many other motocross pros have tested on.
I don't know about you, but I think this is a step in the right direction.
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Wow having Eyvind Boyesen helping out with project two 50 is huge........theres few if any that know more about 2 strokes than him and with him on board that might just be the final piece to the puzzle you guys have needed up to now.Deff. a step in the right direction for sure cant wait to see what happens at southwick now ;D
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This is great news! But damn! project two 50 only thirty minutes from my front door and i missed it! Boyeson is good people and project two 50 can only grow in a positive way with his help. Keep up the good work guys!
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Yep,Mike called and told me the new Boyesen top end is sweet!Says to me,wait until you try it!Boyesen has really stepped it up and good times are ahead. :D
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Forgot to mention about how cool it is that Eyvind used his highly experienced ear,The stopwatch and Mikes experienced butt dyno and no machine dyno to get the most out of the motor.
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Wow!
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That is really awesome John! I have a good feeling about things to come for you guys and the team!
Probably none of my business, but will there still be MicroBlue coating now that Boyesen is in the picture?
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Yes,microblue is still being used.Last mishap was not do to the microblue or the fuel/oil mixture.You really need to try a microblued motor to believe it.
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Every time I read anything regarding Eyvind it completely amazes me. The guy is a genius, and totally dedicated to improving the motorcycles we race. To have his support in this project is another big step in the right direction. I cant wait for Southwick.
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What are The Chances... Really.. Talk about Divine Intervention!
The Team was down and out after the bike had...some "technical" difficulties...
and now you have Mr. Boyesen Tuning your Bike!?
What a difference a day makes..
Evidently Mr. Boyesen sees something in the program worth working for. That's a good dude right there, I'm gonna buy every thing Boyesen makes for our bikes now..
I read a story once about this shepard boy Name of David, He took on this really Huge, Fully Armored Warrior Dude with a handfull of stones and a slingshot...
It's all about who's got your back Bro!
KEEP THE FAITH !
Tuck\o/
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Yes,microblue is still being used.Last mishap was not do to the microblue or the fuel/oil mixture.You really need to try a microblued motor to believe it.
I wasn't implying that MircroBlue was the cause, but simply that if they managed to get a failure of the engine, with that in place, then this must be right at the top of the list for most beastly 250cc machines ever made, of any description. I saw the wear-and-tear test that was done to show the difference between plain metal and MicroBlue coated metal, and that lead me to believe that you could be detonating nuclear warheads inside the combustion chamber without damaging the components!
By the way, has anyone in Project Two-50 considered contacting someone in the Pentagon about maybe making this project nuclear? Does the AMA have any restrictions on the amount of radiation that is allowable from the engine? :D
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[quote author=John Nicholas link=topic=1116.msg12603#ms
With all that said, I had the immense pleasure of being introduced to Eyvind Boyesen at Unadilla. What an amazing man!
He offered to help us out. Now when someone offers to do something, sometimes they mean it and follow through and sometimes ... well it just doesn't work out.
Lucky for Project Two 50 Eyvind was not only a man of his word, but went above and beyond anything we could ever imagined or hoped for. Today Mike traveled down to his home (about a 4 hour drive) to do some testing. They spent the whole day making changes and tuning the bike.
[/quote]
Once project 250 is over and done with-whether months or years from now,this one event would have made the whole effort worthwile-looking back on it in a life experience sort of way-to me anyway.
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Yes,microblue is still being used.Last mishap was not do to the microblue or the fuel/oil mixture.You really need to try a microblued motor to believe it.
I agree, after reading what John posted I strongly believe lean jetting may have been the cause. But that's just "back seat tuning" since I've never even seen the bike in person ;D .
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" Build it and they will come".
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Thank you for all the support. It is appreciated.
Yes there will always be those who criticize. but think about that for a minute, it's easy to be critical of something. Even easier if you don't agree with what someone is doing ( say a 4 stroke fan that hates 2 strokes) which I'm sure that almost everyone here has run into either on the Internet or in person.
I could care less about those folks... they mean nothing to me. I do care about what I do and what I'm a part of and try to do my very best to accomplish the goals that I set for myself.
When you take on a project like this, there are many people that want to help and offer solutions. Sometimes that is a step in the right direction and sometimes it's three steps back... unfortunately when you are working within a budget and you are getting help from companies, you try to utilize all the good stuff that you can. But as I said before that can backfire... so you have to make decisions that don't always work out.
With all that said, I had the immense pleasure of being introduced to Eyvind Boyesen at Unadilla. What an amazing man!
He offered to help us out. Now when someone offers to do something, sometimes they mean it and follow through and sometimes ... well it just doesn't work out.
Lucky for Project Two 50 Eyvind was not only a man of his word, but went above and beyond anything we could ever imagined or hoped for. Today Mike traveled down to his home (about a 4 hour drive) to do some testing. They spent the whole day making changes and tuning the bike.
Eyvind ported a brand new cylinder and gave it to Mike, which is now on the bike. They tried many different combinations of reed valves, pipes, jetting and more. Mike said that Eyvind would listen to the bike and make suggestions for changes and each time the bike seems to get better.
They used a stop watch as the gold standard for each test. Now the track was something that was out-of-this-world, lap times over 3 minutes. Plus it's the same track that Hannah and many other motocross pros have tested on.
I don't know about you, but I think this is a step in the right direction.
Told you John! The two50 project can have wings!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So bad ass!! I am excited for you guys!!!
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Eyvind Boyeson.
Bloody Hell, this is what might be the icing on the cake.
I think he's almost up there with Walter Kaaden in two stroke R&D.
If he can't help the Project 250 engine get through the final barrier, no one else (in the states) can.
John, can you reveal why the piston / ports picked up at the inlet and exhaust? Us blokes out here with 2t experience can only go by what we've seen cause this. I assume you could end our various speculations, that we appear to have got wrong, about the causes.
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Holy crap that,s the key-the final tuner Eyvind Boyeson. His son Dag raced the nationals, I talked with his wrench at Gainsville 97 natl., he was changing frames on the RM250 with 50 plus hp. They got 1 of La rocos spare frames from Decoster, since there pals. The Rad Valve he designed works alot better than the vforce.