Two Stroke Motocross
Two Stroke Motocross Forum => General Two Stroke Talk => Topic started by: offroader on November 17, 2010, 08:11:41 AM
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LAST UPDATED: Oct 27, 2010 12:47:55 PMBikes
LOTSA NEW FROM TM!
What is it with Europe at the moment? While the 'new-model' enduro offerings from Yamaha, Honda, Suzuki and Kawasaki are lucky to get a fresh set of graphics, the European manufacturers seem to be going all out on their new models, many of which are all-new or ground-up rebuilds. KTM, Husaberg, Beta and Gas Gas have all announced, or released, significantly overhauled enduro offerings for 2011, while Italian manufacturer, TM, has just weighed into the debate, informing Transmoto that 2011 will see several new and revamped models arrive in Oz.
According to TM Motorcycles' National Sales & Marketing Manager, Jason Chapman, "The 2011 two-stroke TM enduro bikes we expect to see early next year will come with very significant changes to their engines. Let's just say they will have more electrics involved." Pressed to be more specific on the electronics issue, Chapman divulged, "Their power-valve is linked to the ECU ā?? which is nothing new, as Honda did it a decade ago ā?? but it'd be new if the bike also has fuel-injection
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So the TM will have a servo-motor controlled powervalve like the Yamaha DT/WR 200s and the last case reed Honda CR250?
New model releases seem to run in cycles, when Japan is stagnant Europe fills in the gap and vice versa.
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Interesting.
Will wait and see what happens.
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Just read an small article on the ossa injected 2t trials bike, in the article it mentioned Ossa will be releasing a injected 300 2t enduro in the next 12 months.
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I still can't get terribly excited over injection unless it's of the direct persuasion. I'm not saying traditional fuel-injection would be a bad thing to add to the bikes, but what we need is a revolution, not an evolution.
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For once I agree with Jetz. ;D
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I give up on a fuel injected/direct injected 2 stroke lots of talk no action! It's all good I'm fine with my carb
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There is a MASSIVE difference between direct injection and fuel injection, forget direct injected dirt bikes, replacing the carb with a throttle body is possible ...............if your pockets are deep enough.
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I still can't get terribly excited over injection unless it's of the direct persuasion. I'm not saying traditional fuel-injection would be a bad thing to add to the bikes, but what we need is a revolution, not an evolution.
Agreed!
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What ever gets the 2-stroke back in business here is all I want. Whatever the enviros happy, I guess. Hopefully TM won't screw up their bikes like Honda did to the 05-07 2-strokes. I'm sure they won't, but...
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What ever gets the 2-stroke back in business here is all I want. Whatever the enviros happy, I guess. Hopefully TM won't screw up their bikes like Honda did to the 05-07 2-strokes. I'm sure they won't, but...
Honda didn't screw up the 05-07s, they improved them over the 02-04 (and by quite a bit)... But Honda had already planned for the 2 strokes to be obsolete with the introduction of their 450 in 2002. They left a lot on the table, so sad they didn't finish as there was (and is) so much potential in their case reed motors.
Maybe TM will introduce a programmable valve so you can tune it like you do on the KTMs with the springs on their mechanical PV... That'd be nice. Throw that in with EFI or DI and it'd be beyond sweet.
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What ever gets the 2-stroke back in business here is all I want. Whatever the enviros happy, I guess. Hopefully TM won't screw up their bikes like Honda did to the 05-07 2-strokes. I'm sure they won't, but...
Honda didn't screw up the 05-07s, they improved them over the 02-04 (and by quite a bit)... But Honda had already planned for the 2 strokes to be obsolete with the introduction of their 450 in 2002. They left a lot on the table, so sad they didn't finish as there was (and is) so much potential in their case reed motors.
Maybe TM will introduce a programmable valve so you can tune it like you do on the KTMs with the springs on their mechanical PV... That'd be nice. Throw that in with EFI or DI and it'd be beyond sweet.
Sorry but i had to reply to you on this I had a KTM 250sx with variable power valve springs but all this talk of 'tuning them' is a load of rubbish all that happens is the stronger the spring the more you disable and weaken the power valve, you dont get anything extra from doing this in different parts of the rev spectrum - if you choose the strong spring it just doesnt let the power valve come in - until its to late for it to give any extra sort of power you'd even notice, its basically for riders who cant handle a power valve - great for novices but of no use for anyone used to riding a decent 2 stroke.
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What ever gets the 2-stroke back in business here is all I want. Whatever the enviros happy, I guess. Hopefully TM won't screw up their bikes like Honda did to the 05-07 2-strokes. I'm sure they won't, but...
Honda didn't screw up the 05-07s, they improved them over the 02-04 (and by quite a bit)... But Honda had already planned for the 2 strokes to be obsolete with the introduction of their 450 in 2002. They left a lot on the table, so sad they didn't finish as there was (and is) so much potential in their case reed motors.
Maybe TM will introduce a programmable valve so you can tune it like you do on the KTMs with the springs on their mechanical PV... That'd be nice. Throw that in with EFI or DI and it'd be beyond sweet.
100% Correct, I had a 2002 CR250, My Son has a 2006 CR250, His is way better than the 2002, I think it is better than my 2010 YZ250 as well.
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What ever gets the 2-stroke back in business here is all I want. Whatever the enviros happy, I guess. Hopefully TM won't screw up their bikes like Honda did to the 05-07 2-strokes. I'm sure they won't, but...
Honda didn't screw up the 05-07s, they improved them over the 02-04 (and by quite a bit)... But Honda had already planned for the 2 strokes to be obsolete with the introduction of their 450 in 2002. They left a lot on the table, so sad they didn't finish as there was (and is) so much potential in their case reed motors.
Maybe TM will introduce a programmable valve so you can tune it like you do on the KTMs with the springs on their mechanical PV... That'd be nice. Throw that in with EFI or DI and it'd be beyond sweet.
Sorry but i had to reply to you on this I had a KTM 250sx with variable power valve springs but all this talk of 'tuning them' is a load of rubbish all that happens is the stronger the spring the more you disable and weaken the power valve, you dont get anything extra from doing this in different parts of the rev spectrum - if you choose the strong spring it just doesnt let the power valve come in - until its to late for it to give any extra sort of power you'd even notice, its basically for riders who cant handle a power valve - great for novices but of no use for anyone used to riding a decent 2 stroke.
I get what you are saying, But still disagree, I see value in adjusting the power curve for varying conditions. No matter how good your throttle control is, Sometimes less is more.
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What ever gets the 2-stroke back in business here is all I want. Whatever the enviros happy, I guess. Hopefully TM won't screw up their bikes like Honda did to the 05-07 2-strokes. I'm sure they won't, but...
Honda didn't screw up the 05-07s, they improved them over the 02-04 (and by quite a bit)... But Honda had already planned for the 2 strokes to be obsolete with the introduction of their 450 in 2002. They left a lot on the table, so sad they didn't finish as there was (and is) so much potential in their case reed motors.
Maybe TM will introduce a programmable valve so you can tune it like you do on the KTMs with the springs on their mechanical PV... That'd be nice. Throw that in with EFI or DI and it'd be beyond sweet.
Sorry but i had to reply to you on this I had a KTM 250sx with variable power valve springs but all this talk of 'tuning them' is a load of rubbish all that happens is the stronger the spring the more you disable and weaken the power valve, you dont get anything extra from doing this in different parts of the rev spectrum - if you choose the strong spring it just doesnt let the power valve come in - until its to late for it to give any extra sort of power you'd even notice, its basically for riders who cant handle a power valve - great for novices but of no use for anyone used to riding a decent 2 stroke.
I disagree, it's a valuable option for tuning the bikes for different tracks (I run the red spring a lot on the 4 stroke groomed tracks). (I have a 2010 250SX btw)...
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Okay, not to down the 05-07 CRs, everyone's right, they should have finished the job. Rather than say the Honda Powervalve was a bad design, i will say that it was an unfinished design. I don't see why they couldn't make a powervalve that doesn't require you to adjust he wires, which loosen. Simpler is better IMO, sans the 01 CRs. :D
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Okay, not to down the 05-07 CRs, everyone's right, they should have finished the job. Rather than say the Honda Powervalve was a bad design, i will say that it was an unfinished design. I don't see why they couldn't make a powervalve that doesn't require you to adjust he wires, which loosen. Simpler is better IMO, sans the 01 CRs. :D
They had the right idea, it just didn't fully pan out (especially since Honda pulled the Sr. engineers from the 2 stroke side and threw them into the 4 stroke program). Same goes with their attempt @ the case reed. I'm all for simplicity, however you can't say Honda was trying to bring some innovations to the 2 stroke market. Too bad they just dropped it.
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What ever gets the 2-stroke back in business here is all I want. Whatever the enviros happy, I guess. Hopefully TM won't screw up their bikes like Honda did to the 05-07 2-strokes. I'm sure they won't, but...
Honda didn't screw up the 05-07s, they improved them over the 02-04 (and by quite a bit)... But Honda had already planned for the 2 strokes to be obsolete with the introduction of their 450 in 2002. They left a lot on the table, so sad they didn't finish as there was (and is) so much potential in their case reed motors.
Maybe TM will introduce a programmable valve so you can tune it like you do on the KTMs with the springs on their mechanical PV... That'd be nice. Throw that in with EFI or DI and it'd be beyond sweet.
Sorry but i had to reply to you on this I had a KTM 250sx with variable power valve springs but all this talk of 'tuning them' is a load of rubbish all that happens is the stronger the spring the more you disable and weaken the power valve, you dont get anything extra from doing this in different parts of the rev spectrum - if you choose the strong spring it just doesnt let the power valve come in - until its to late for it to give any extra sort of power you'd even notice, its basically for riders who cant handle a power valve - great for novices but of no use for anyone used to riding a decent 2 stroke.
I disagree, it's a valuable option for tuning the bikes for different tracks (I run the red spring a lot on the 4 stroke groomed tracks). (I have a 2010 250SX btw)...
I always used the red spring, the others were completely boring, no hit at higher revs at all. Saying that although it was a great bike even on the red spring my KTM sx 250 yr 2004 didnā??t hit the same oomph that my kx 250 yr 2000 has. What Iā??m saying is that, for example, by using the green spring (the least powerful option) your not taking away a part of the power at the top end and adding it to another part in the lower end - its just slowing the quickness of the power band coming into effect - this means your just limiting how much ooomph the power valve is providing which yes is tuning - but in doing this your actually de-tuning the bike.. its like having a turbo on a 4 stroke motor and having a spring that reduces how much extra power it produces, you dont add any extra power in other parts as a pay off for reducing it, you just get less power where you would usually get more. Great if thatā??s what you want but I wanted to make the point that its not like your 'tuning' or altering the power spectrum but just reducing peak power...
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What ever gets the 2-stroke back in business here is all I want. Whatever the enviros happy, I guess. Hopefully TM won't screw up their bikes like Honda did to the 05-07 2-strokes. I'm sure they won't, but...
Honda didn't screw up the 05-07s, they improved them over the 02-04 (and by quite a bit)... But Honda had already planned for the 2 strokes to be obsolete with the introduction of their 450 in 2002. They left a lot on the table, so sad they didn't finish as there was (and is) so much potential in their case reed motors.
Maybe TM will introduce a programmable valve so you can tune it like you do on the KTMs with the springs on their mechanical PV... That'd be nice. Throw that in with EFI or DI and it'd be beyond sweet.
Sorry but i had to reply to you on this I had a KTM 250sx with variable power valve springs but all this talk of 'tuning them' is a load of rubbish all that happens is the stronger the spring the more you disable and weaken the power valve, you dont get anything extra from doing this in different parts of the rev spectrum - if you choose the strong spring it just doesnt let the power valve come in - until its to late for it to give any extra sort of power you'd even notice, its basically for riders who cant handle a power valve - great for novices but of no use for anyone used to riding a decent 2 stroke.
I disagree, it's a valuable option for tuning the bikes for different tracks (I run the red spring a lot on the 4 stroke groomed tracks). (I have a 2010 250SX btw)...
I always used the red spring, the others were completely boring, no hit at higher revs at all. Saying that although it was a great bike even on the red spring my KTM sx 250 yr 2004 didnā??t hit the same oomph that my kx 250 yr 2000 has. What Iā??m saying is that, for example, by using the green spring (the least powerful option) your not taking away a part of the power at the top end and adding it to another part in the lower end - its just slowing the quickness of the power band coming into effect - this means your just limiting how much ooomph the power valve is providing which yes is tuning - but in doing this your actually de-tuning the bike.. its like having a turbo on a 4 stroke motor and having a spring that reduces how much extra power it produces, you dont add any extra power in other parts as a pay off for reducing it, you just get less power where you would usually get more. Great if thatā??s what you want but I wanted to make the point that its not like your 'tuning' or altering the power spectrum but just reducing peak power...
Which is my point, on slick tracks the differing springs would allow you to take some hit out so you aren't out there spinning. etc... throttle control helps a lot, but having something mellow it out / make the hit harder for different terrains and tracks helps.
So, adjustable power valves are are great thing. (electronic or otherwise).
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Being able to adjust when the power valve opens has benefits in very slippery conditions.
It does not though effect peak power at all, unless you stop the power valve opening all together.
Most of the european enduro bikes now come with a ignition switch to switch between two pre programed ignition maps.
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Interesting thing is that the wec guys are known to wire there pv full open to eliminate the hit completey.
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Interesting thing is that the wec guys are known to wire there pv full open to eliminate the hit completey.
That would work, but it would completely stuff up your low end power.
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They do not rid on the bottom of the torque much. ;D
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Interesting thing is that the wec guys are known to wire there pv full open to eliminate the hit completey.
The motor would still have a "hit", they would just lose bottom end power.
The power valve basically give the motor two exhaust port heights, one for good low end power, and one for good top end power. The speed at which it opens can effect the transition from bottom to top ie. mid range or "hit"
Most pre powervalve bikes had a bigger "hit" than todays machines because they had very little bottom end power.
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When I bought my first Maico 500 I didn't know it at the time but the guillotine style powervalve was broken and had fallen down, retarding the exhaust port timing. The bike was smoother then a fourstroke and was a torque monster.
When I repaired the powervalve, what a difference! The bike still had the same smooth bottom end but when that powervalve opened the power that 500 made! It was about then that my CR500 buddies stopped trying to drag race me. ;D
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What ever gets the 2-stroke back in business here is all I want. Whatever the enviros happy, I guess. Hopefully TM won't screw up their bikes like Honda did to the 05-07 2-strokes. I'm sure they won't, but...
Honda didn't screw up the 05-07s, they improved them over the 02-04 (and by quite a bit)... But Honda had already planned for the 2 strokes to be obsolete with the introduction of their 450 in 2002. They left a lot on the table, so sad they didn't finish as there was (and is) so much potential in their case reed motors.
Maybe TM will introduce a programmable valve so you can tune it like you do on the KTMs with the springs on their mechanical PV... That'd be nice. Throw that in with EFI or DI and it'd be beyond sweet.
Sorry but i had to reply to you on this I had a KTM 250sx with variable power valve springs but all this talk of 'tuning them' is a load of rubbish all that happens is the stronger the spring the more you disable and weaken the power valve, you dont get anything extra from doing this in different parts of the rev spectrum - if you choose the strong spring it just doesnt let the power valve come in - until its to late for it to give any extra sort of power you'd even notice, its basically for riders who cant handle a power valve - great for novices but of no use for anyone used to riding a decent 2 stroke.
I disagree, it's a valuable option for tuning the bikes for different tracks (I run the red spring a lot on the 4 stroke groomed tracks). (I have a 2010 250SX btw)...
I always used the red spring, the others were completely boring, no hit at higher revs at all. Saying that although it was a great bike even on the red spring my KTM sx 250 yr 2004 didnā??t hit the same oomph that my kx 250 yr 2000 has. What Iā??m saying is that, for example, by using the green spring (the least powerful option) your not taking away a part of the power at the top end and adding it to another part in the lower end - its just slowing the quickness of the power band coming into effect - this means your just limiting how much ooomph the power valve is providing which yes is tuning - but in doing this your actually de-tuning the bike.. its like having a turbo on a 4 stroke motor and having a spring that reduces how much extra power it produces, you dont add any extra power in other parts as a pay off for reducing it, you just get less power where you would usually get more. Great if thatā??s what you want but I wanted to make the point that its not like your 'tuning' or altering the power spectrum but just reducing peak power...
Which is my point, on slick tracks the differing springs would allow you to take some hit out so you aren't out there spinning. etc... throttle control helps a lot, but having something mellow it out / make the hit harder for different terrains and tracks helps.
So, adjustable power valves are are great thing. (electronic or otherwise).
yeah ok cool ;D
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Interesting thing is that the wec guys are known to wire there pv full open to eliminate the hit completey.
The motor would still have a "hit", they would just lose bottom end power.
The power valve basically give the motor two exhaust port heights, one for good low end power, and one for good top end power. The speed at which it opens can effect the transition from bottom to top ie. mid range or "hit"
Most pre powervalve bikes had a bigger "hit" than todays machines because they had very little bottom end power.
Hence why they dosconnect as they do not want that transitional hit.They tend to ride wfo most of the time and want massive power now.
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Running a servo controlled pv seems to me like fixing something that isn't broke.On the other hand,my '85 RZ had one and it worked ok,just not a revolution.
As far as FI goes,unlike the rest of you old(and young),set in your ways fossils ;)-I'm all for it-even if not a full DI system.Ski-doo's SDI (semi direct) is a great system too.Baby steps are better than none and sometimes allow for better development in the long run.
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Agreed, provided that some innovation will make the bike better (and if it gets 0.5% more performance but increases maintenance by 50% then it's not better in my opinion) then by all means it should be employed. I'm not saying that fuel injection is going to make the bike more difficult to maintain, but IF it did, then the rewards in performance should be greater than the costs in time and money that would go into keeping the thing up and running, and that goes for every innovation, from aluminum frames, to round wheels. Sometimes the cost-benefit analysis is a no-brainer. :)
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Well said Jetz. If they create a fuel injection system that requires a lot of maintenance, that is just defeating the whole idea of our "cheap and easy to maintain" 2 strokes.
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I am a believer that more technology is not always better. I like the idea of bikes I can work on out on the trail. Honestly, at the risk of sounding like Jetz :-X, I am not really even a fan of power valves because they complicate top end maintenance. On a dirt bike, to me, simpler is better.
So I will stick to bikes with carburetors that I can easily work on :D .
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^Blasphemy!
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See, I always win in the end. It may take 30 years, but that's just the way I roll. :P
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Christ Coop , Do you know what you are saying ? :o
I think you need to sit down and take a breather. ;)
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Christ Coop , Do you know what you are saying ? :o
I think you need to sit down and take a breather. ;)
Yeah I obviously wasn't thinking clearly when I posted that... :D
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Well said Jetz. If they create a fuel injection system that requires a lot of maintenance, that is just defeating the whole idea of our "cheap and easy to maintain" 2 strokes.
LOL.. you guys crack me up.. The fuel injected ski-doos are more reliable, pollute less that the 4 stroke have more power everywhere without adding any weight at all , are easy to tweak and work on.. doesn't need more maintenance but still not good enough? We are going to be in 2011 next year. Who cares is we don't have needle or blue smoke.??? It is all positive!!!!!!!!!!! Blue smoke away is a good welcome to indoor tracks...... Stop living in the past......
Listen to these 2 videos.. comparing the old carb version to the new fuel injected one... No comparisons..
SnowTrax Rides SKi-Doo's 800R E-TEC MXZ X (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXFlkYNqtUg#ws)
Lightest Trial motorbike ever...
it is a fuel injected and simply amazing looking!
CON SONIDO: OSSA TR 280i NUEVA MOTO DE TRIAL (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWYOdC1tUnc#)
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I said IF there was extra maintenance that outweighed the other gains. Although I have limited experience with the BRP direct-injection products, I believe that the gains they make from the technology, absolutely obliterate any of the downsides that may exist. I still haven't heard how fuel-injection really affects the Ossa - all I've heard in the way of advantages for non-direct fuel-injection come from the four-stroke world, where it seems most of them turned out to be marketing. Again, that's an entirely different bike than a two-stroke, and so the results are going to be different. The point is, I don't know how this middle-of-the-road technology is going to affect TM's bike, and I further don't know how that is going to affect cost, maintenance, or the do-it-yourself factor, because it's worlds different from the BRP technology we all know and love. Therefore, I am reserving judgement on the TM until this information becomes available. However, I am confident that the gains are not going to be as significant as they would have been, had they chosen to adopt something similar to the wonderful direct-injection with which the majority of us are highly impressed.
The most important word in what we have been saying, was the word "IF."
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I said IF there was extra maintenance that outweighed the other gains. Although I have limited experience with the BRP direct-injection products, I believe that the gains they make from the technology, absolutely obliterate any of the downsides that may exist. I still haven't heard how fuel-injection really affects the Ossa - all I've heard in the way of advantages for non-direct fuel-injection come from the four-stroke world, where it seems most of them turned out to be marketing. Again, that's an entirely different bike than a two-stroke, and so the results are going to be different. The point is, I don't know how this middle-of-the-road technology is going to affect TM's bike, and I further don't know how that is going to affect cost, maintenance, or the do-it-yourself factor, because it's worlds different from the BRP technology we all know and love. Therefore, I am reserving judgement on the TM until this information becomes available. However, I am confident that the gains are not going to be as significant as they would have been, had they chosen to adopt something similar to the wonderful direct-injection with which the majority of us are highly impressed.
The most important word in what we have been saying, was the word "IF."
Do you really think that they will upgrade their machines with something worse?lol Guys are funny! There is nothing wrong by replacing a damn carb with a cpu.. If I can get an eco-friendly ( yeah I care about the air we are breathing) 2 stroke engine with more power without the hassle of more maintenance.. I will show the money..and will help the cause.. people are so narrow minded.. Man I live in country where snowmobiles rules the Winter(religion)... and Bombardier are just killing the market right now with the 2 stroke renaissance ..Yamaha with their 4 stroke design (pigs) are just a joke over here.. trust me.. They go on forever without any rebuilt but comes with a bigger hit and more controllable power... Just wake up and accept the fact that there is nothing wrong with an upgraded version of a 2 stroke that we really like. 2 stroke is Motocross..
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Keep up dreamin..stay positive!!!!!!! I love the sport more than my life itself....There is nothing like Motocross..we all know it..
Riding Impression - 2010 YZ250 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McXSF19erq8#ws)
CR 500 Braaap!! Long Live 2 Strokes!!!!! www.MXwebcam.com (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TJGKOfpDic#ws)
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Do I think they would make the bikes worse? Well, they've done it before, at least according to relatively unreliable sources like Bob Hannah. And haven't we forgotten about the massive downgrade that everyone made for themselves in the name of "new technology" with this whole four-stroke fiasco? Newer does not necessarily equal better, as any passing glance at the 1981 and 1982 Maicos, or 1969 and 1985 Ford Mustangs would quickly reveal. On the aggregate, yes new is generally better than old, but that is not a law cast into granite.
BUT, what you're missing is that this whole time, I've been using the word "if" very liberally and with a lot of weight placed upon it. IF the bike is worse over-all because of a new technology, then I don't see any reason to think it's a good thing. If. If! IF!!
The proper way to look at bikes, is to imagine that both exist entirely without context, so they can be held to the same standard. Want to compare a 1995 KX to a 2006 KX? Imagine that they're both different bikes sitting brand-new on a 2010 show-room floor, and the friendly dealership man is saying, "These are our two models for 2010, here are the details on both, which one will you be buying today?" All I'm saying is that we should be looking at the technology to determine which bike is better, NOT at which has a bigger number in the box marked "Model Year." IF the carburetor works better than the injection, taking into account performance, cost, durability, etc, then that should be the bike to prefer. IF the injection works better than the carburetor, then that is the bike to prefer. I am not trying to say that the carburetor will be better than fuel injection, I'm saying that I don't know.
You can't say that the new TM is like the BRP snowmobiles, because there is a massive, MASSIVE difference between "fuel injection" and "direct injection" in two-strokes. "Fuel Injection" just means the bike is exactly the same, except the fuel is added to airflow by a high-pressure nozzle, rather than by a tube working on Bernoulli's principle. All your engine is going to get is a finer mist and slightly cleaner combustion, as well as whatever flexibility comes from working with the electronics in the injector. The whole exhaust-port-fuel-escaping problem is still present on a fuel-injected bike, so don't expect a radical environmental game in this new TM; it won't be there.
In the end, this line,
If I can get an eco-friendly ( yeah I care about the air we are breathing) 2 stroke engine with more power without the hassle of more maintenance.. I will show the money
says it all. You qualified your statement by saying that there can't be the hassle of more maintenance. That's all we're getting at, and it appears you agree. With the BRP technology, it passes this test. TM's system will be entirely different, so we have to reserve judgement until we can see if it passes.
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EFI is always better than carburetors both in performance and maintenance.That's why carbs have went the way of the dino in most other applications.There's also no reason TM couldn't go with a DI system.The only issue I see with FI is weight.The system is a little heftier but it would be a worthwhile trade off imo.
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My question for all the guys that don't like the idea of fuel injection, how often do you actually jet your carburetor?? If you're doing it right, it's every time you ride depending on the conditions.
Yesterday I had the opportunity to jet a 2005 CR125. Have you guys gotten to work on a newer bike??
To be able to get to the carb to change the pilot and adjust the needle, a few parts had to be removed to accomplish this task. Here is the list.
Seat, side panel, silencer, sub frame and gas tank. All this just to get to the carburetor. Now maybe you have small enough hands that you would not have had to remove all that stuff, but I don't really think it's possible.
Of course JetZ pointed out a very important idea, if new technology is not better, why would you adopt it?
From my limited understanding of fuel injection, to change the "jetting" you connect a laptop to the bike and make your adjustments.
Comparing the two methods of jetting a bike. I know which I would chose!
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Hey John,
I do jet my bike depending on conditions, but this is only just fine tuning for each track. Luckily my ride, a YZ 250, allows easy access to the carb, and can jet just by spinning the carb in the manifold. For sure hand held computer adjustment would be much easier, but we will have to wait and see what is going to happen there. I sure hope something does. I will jump in both feet first. Especially if it is a KTM or TM that releases the fuel injection.
As for your question on who actually works on a late model motocross bike, I sincerely hope that there is more than just a few of us that do ride and race two strokes at a decent level. I know Jetz and his mates like to go on about old Maico's and the like all the time, but I am sure most guys here are interested and own late model two stroke motocross bikes !!
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I have jetted many newer bikes John. Most you just remove the subframe with all the parts attached. Obviously not the fuel tank though :)
But yes I do jet my bikes a lot, not every ride, but I don't race. But I am not a jet it once and forget it rider.
For the record I am not against F.I. for racing, I guess I should have clarified that. I only trail ride and imagine that is all I will ever do unless my financial status changes in the future. Right now racing is just too expensive. So the thought of more expensive components on top of already expensive bikes and an already expensive sport just doesn't sound like fun to me for the way I ride. I am not anti-technology by any means. I am just not a fan of making bikes more complicated and expensive. ;D
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Well, here's my opinion on this whole thing. As far as me? I prefer the carb, because I know how to work on it myself and I know how to jet perfectly, and on a 125 I can do it on the stand. I was messing with a CRF50 last night, and it took a while. Anyways, as far as needing to jet every time I ride, ONLY if you guys race... You know the whole conversation I had the other day with a 450 owner and 4 stroke lover was that he was faster on the 4 stroke. He weighed about 240 or so but not really fat, just big guy. Anyways, my question is, who cares if you are faster? What are you winning? I have more fun on a 2 stroke, and I don't race anymore. Did the whole pro racing thing and am over that. So who cares if I would be faster on a 4 stroke. Anyhoo, back to topic. My opinion on why they NEED 2 strokes with DI or FI is this... There are a ton of guys out there that can't and never could jet a bike. That gave 2 strokes a bad name. Blowing them up and oil spooging etc. It wasn't about the bike, it was about the person doing the setup. If a 2 stroke 250 was actually set up right, it should run for years and never even need a rebuilt top end. Most people aren't fast enough to need rebuilds every year like they always said they needed. I will go 3 years atleast on my 250. Never any problems, and hey, if I'm slower because lost compression, I just need to push harder, because even at less compression, am I going as fast as the bike can go? Do I ride as fast as Ricky? Then no to both.... So the DI and FI are for people who don't really know how, in my opinion. The carbs are for those who probably don't wanna learn all this computer setup stuff and just wanna fiddle like me..
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On bikes like the cr250 02+ you can just loosen the carb clamps an push the carb back and twist it out to jet
but my ktm85 you got to remove the subframe ,
i hope they can get the fuel injection working
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Lol I am definitely one of those "don't know how to jet". I'm sure I could figure it out I've just had nobody teach me lol. My dad knows nothing bout bikes so I just learn everthing from the internet but all jetting tutorials seem confusing, or maybe I'm an idiot.
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I'm a technology Junkie, so I would definately get one.
I will be getting a KTM or TM 250, I may just wait until some injection is available.
But I'm sure I will always have my YZ, and some spare jets on hand. :)
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Can anybody tells frigging TM Racing to update their website? We are not in in the 90's anymore.. Awful site.
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Hey 2smoker,
I dont find their website too bad. But I am not real fussy. If I am interested, I will work my way around it.
A question for John and TMKiwi, and anyone else with a TM. How do the new TM's compare in handling with the KTM's and the Japanese two strokes. Say a well set up YZ. Do they feel balanced? Do they still require a revalve just like every other bike on the market. Are they similar in ergonomics? I have also read that all the TM's make big horsepower, is it very tractable, or can it be hard to ride? How have you found buying genuine parts price wise against aftermarket parts for jap bikes? Thanks, for any more info on what looks to be my next bike.
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SwapperMX.
The handling i find is great.My bike turns as well as my rm did but with a little bit more stability at speed. The tm's are alot less twitchy then the katoom's. Compared to yz's i havn't riden a yz for a few years so can't really compare. But stock i would think the tm would be better off road.
Suspension wise the bikes are awsome for a standard setup. Mine has the optional Ohlins.
You should not need a revalve at all but the spring may need to change depending on you weight. I am 5"10 and 85kg.
If you buy new you can specify spring rates.
The egos of mine are spot on for my size with plenty of room to move around with.Similar to my rm with bar risers.
The seat height is lower then ktm's which i like. Ktm's are just too tall these days unless you are a freak like john ;)
You are right about horsepower they do have plenty and the 300's have a good bottom end.
I have yet to be out draged by anything yet.There was a guy in the weekend on a CR500 at the trail ride i did and was hoping to see him out on the track and have a ride with him but never caught up.I rode with a guy on a Husky TCX450 and the bikes are similar in power but mine seemed to have a little more top end. I will say i do get a bit of cramp after 2-3 hours from holding on and you do need to be carefull at times with your right hand. I had to short shift all day yesterday because of the slippery grass. Nearly had a couple of off's with the arse coming around. :-[
There is always the lever on the left bar you can use in tricky situations that some people forget about ;D.It's hydraulic as well.
Parts are reasonably priced and are available here in nz or 2 days from Aussie.
Get one , you will love it.
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What website are you looking at? In the USA, Barker Bros. update their site on almost a daily basis with new model releases and Racing updates.
http://tmracingmotorcycles.com/ (http://tmracingmotorcycles.com/)
Terry
Can anybody tells frigging TM Racing to update their website? We are not in in the 90's anymore.. Awful site.
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What website are you looking at? In the USA, Barker Bros. update their site on almost a daily basis with new model releases and Racing updates.
http://tmracingmotorcycles.com/ (http://tmracingmotorcycles.com/)
Terry
Can anybody tells frigging TM Racing to update their website? We are not in in the 90's anymore.. Awful site.
Hey... I know the guy that does that site!! Nice dude! ;D ;D