Two Stroke Motocross
Two Stroke Motocross Forum => General Two Stroke Talk => Topic started by: ferrahount on December 24, 2009, 04:42:02 PM
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I've just read the test ride report of the KTM 250SX from Motocross Action mag.
This guys are still testing and spreading the word of how good two strokes are.
I now just want to buy this bike, the February issue came to let to write Santa for one of this bikes so I'll have to save every buck to buy one, and I will.
I can't paste the whole article here, but some interesting quotes are:
About the engine "This is a rocket ship! This is the most powerful 250cc motocross bike sold. On the dyno, the 2010 250SX made 49.05 horsepower at 8600 rpm and 30.95 foot pounds of torque at 8100 rpm.
For comparison purposes, here is how the 2010 KTM 250SX compares to the Honda CRF250, Honda CRF450 and Yamaha YZ250 two-stroke.
CRF250: The KTM 250SX makes 12.7 horsepower and 11 foot-pounds of torque more than the 2010 CRF250.
CRF450: The KTM 250SX makes 1.8 horsepower and 1.75 foot-pounds of torque less than the 2010 CRF450.
YZ250: The KTM 250SX makes 3.5 horsepower and two foot-pounds of torque more than the 2010 YZ250.
By two-stroke standards, the 250SX has a very smooth, broad and usable powerband."
Final word "The box-stock 2010 KTM 250SX is a fast, lightweight and agile bike. It is surprisingly competitive against 450s and an unfair advantage over 250Fs. It is inexpensive to maintain and simple to work on. If the KTM 250SX doesen't make you rethink the four-stroke revolution, nothing will."
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I think I can name one 250 that will make one reconsider the 4T revolution even more than the SX. Its name starts with M and ends with O. I'm talking, of course, about the entire bovine 250F line. Moo!
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good 2 see one of the comic books telling it like it is for a change :o
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"It is surprisingly competitive against 450s and an unfair advantage over 250Fs. "
i know this statement is true but i dont think it helps our cause. im just saying.....
it should read, "450s still have an unfair advantage but its surprisingly competitive against the 250fs"
with statements like that being made we will never see the big 4 letting 2t, let alone the sx in a pro class. just my thoughts.
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westsiderippa - That is exactly what we have to work on!!
While it's fun to tease and make fun of the racers that have either converted to or grown up racing four-strokes... it's this continuous banter in the mainstream media that has them convinced that four-strokes are superior.
The true goal of this site has been to reverse this negative "programming" by the media and others. I know it's not a popular sentiment, but no truer words have been said;
Honey gets more flyes to it, than doth viniger.
[1666 G. Torriano Italian Proverbs 149]
Tart Words make no Friends: spoonful of honey will catch more flies than Gallon of Vinegar.
[1744 B. Franklin Poor Richard's Almanack (Mar.)]
These guys are not so much our "enemies" as just convinced by all the media and hype that they are right. To help these folks we need to be kind to them, and help them to see what we have been saying and talking about for many years.... try both in a fair environment and them make up your own mind.
This will do more to help our quest than any badgering, name calling or put downs.....
Think about it....
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i agree, i guess if the truth can be told to the consumer it wont matter what the manufacture thinks they will build bikes that people(the majority) want. so now that i look at that statement again, "has an unfair advantage over the 250f" i guess its publicity like that is what we need to get these kids thinking in that right direction. all i know is I hate politics.
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Now don't get me wrong, i'm 2t forever but in the real world just about everyone's faster around any given track on a 250f (myself included). i just can't stand the electric boring feel of the 250f's but thats what makes them fast.
Here in NZ all the 250's race together because the lap times are very similar between 2 and 4 and apparently the latest (2010) 250f's are a step up again. I guess what i'm saying is that young guys ride fourstrokes cause they want the best shot at winning and probably don't have the necessary skills to keep a 2t on the pipe.
I've got a 300 so i race against 450's and straight up the new injected one's are fast! My bikes just as fast but not as tractable, so you've gotta work harder to go as fast, a 450 can just stay in 3rd and torque out of corners while i'm up and down gears constantly. Personally that challenge of staying up on the bike and being aggressive and attacking is what i love but it's hard work compared to a four stroke.
In saying all that though i'll never by a four stroke i'm 2t through and through, just adding some perspective.
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Are the tracks in NZ groomed and plotted for 4T's? There is now way a correctly tuned 2T should have similar lap times than a 4T. Plus, you should be less fatigued at the end of a moto or ride on a 2T. That's how I see it, and I can ride my 500 FASTER and LONGER before I get tired than I can any 250. Especially in tight, twisty stuff.
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Are the tracks in NZ groomed and plotted for 4T's? There is now way a correctly tuned 2T should have similar lap times than a 4T. Plus, you should be less fatigued at the end of a moto or ride on a 2T. That's how I see it, and I can ride my 500 FASTER and LONGER before I get tired than I can any 250. Especially in tight, twisty stuff.
What grade are you racing in and have you done timed laps on both your bikes?
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I think people that get tired out by 500s are approaching it the wrong way. I think they're coming out of a corner on the pipe and hammering the throttle to the balls and letting the bike intimidate them. Hell, unless you're very very good, a 500 on the pipe will intimidate just about anyone. The advantage to the 500 is the ability to match the performance of a 250 with less effort. Instead of shifting and clutching and coming hard on the throttle, you can afford to roll it onto 1/3 throttle in 3rd and expect to pull hard and clean. And, according to the wisdom of an earlier time when the Open 2T was king, that was the fastest way to go. Even with a 390 Husky, which one would presume to be less demanding than a 500, Cycle Guide was able to say the following:
Like many Open-class bikes, the "secret" of making the 390 go its fastest is to use the lower and middle areas of the rpm range and practically forget about the higher revs. In fact, revving the engine to its highest limits is dramatically counterproductive. You can go much faster, easier, by shifting sooner and letting the massive mid-range torque of the engine do its stuff. When ridden in this manner on a track with any reasonable amount of traction available, the 390 has enough power to easily lift and hold the front wheel in the air in the first five gearsâ??and it'll do it with no help at all from the rider.
[...]
With six speeds and all the power of a steam locomotive, you almost have to go out of your way to use all the gears on the 390. Second- or third-gear starts get you off the line like an AA/Fueler, and you'll probably never use sixth on a motocross track in this country. Some courses can be ridden in their entirety in just two gears, while most tracks will probably require three. It will be a rare track, indeed, that will make good use of four of the Husky's six gears.
Of course, that was a European bike with European power delivery, which is dramatically less pipey than a Japanese model. When a 1991 CR500 was tested against a 1981 Maico 490, the testers found the 490 to be far easier to control with its smooth (not to be confused with flat) power delivery compared to the CR500's "Big Bang."
That's my two cents on the big bikes. I should note that I haven't actually done any serious riding on an open-classer, and am going of magazine tests and my dad's 40+ years of experience riding bikes, which is mostly non-track riding on European machines.
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Anyways, I raced my 250cc 2 stroke against the 450's and let me tell you that is twice the work at a racing pace.. 4 stroke have that grunt/torque power delivery than a 2 stroke would never have.. No mistakes are allowed.. The biggest advantage of the 2 stroke is the weight and flickability. And also.. 4 stroke are really good at making deep ruts like no tomorrow... it's unbelievable!
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Have you ever ridden next to someone on a 1986 Maico 500? It feels like he's got a 426 Hemi between the footpegs. One starts to think that it's an engine tuned entirely for low-end; that it really can't rev out. It's easy to think of the bike as a torque monster with the character of a 450F. The only reason it's possible to think this is the fact that it doesn't NEED to rev to keep up with just about anything you can buy. I got to see what happened once when he gave it the berries on the beast, and it was unbelievable. The big, lumbering torquey engine seemed to be replaced with a blown dragster on Nitromethane.
The moral of the story is, it's very easy to underestimate the two-stroke's ability to produce low-end power. They've been characterized over the last few years by the traits found in the Japanese 125s and 250s with most of the power coming through a [relatively] narrow rev range. I think that's just because they're trying to get that big horsepower number to move units out the door. If you want a two-stroke with some proper torque, you can get it. But, unlike a 4T that will deliver you with a similar low-end grunt (at about the same displacement), the 2T will continue to deliver more and more until you've had enough. You think a 4T can make a deep rut? Let's fire up a KTM 495 and inspect the damage done after a 3rd gear start.
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Anyways, I raced my 250cc 2 stroke against the 450's and let me tell you that is twice the work at a racing pace.. 4 stroke have that grunt/torque power delivery than a 2 stroke would never have.. No mistakes are allowed.. The biggest advantage of the 2 stroke is the weight and flickability. And also.. 4 stroke are really good at making deep ruts like no tomorrow... it's unbelievable!
How can you say the 4T has more grunt/torque? It has 80% MORE displacement! No wonder it has more torque. It's not because it is technologically superior. It's just flat bigger. 250F'S get 100% and it's like people wonder why they are easier to ride. So, my suggestion to you is this: spend about 40-60 hours on a 500 2T. Learn how to ride it. You will be less fatigued (I know, that right there goes against conventional wisdom, but it's still true) and SHOULD be able to ride faster on it. Bu YOU need to adapt to IT. It doesn't work the other way around. If you don't have the ability to procure a European 500, you can almost duplicate it with a KX 500 (it's a little tougher with the CR because it lacks a power valve). Put a pipe on it, dual stage reeds and the biggest flywheel weight you can buy. Spend the rest of your money LEARNING to ride it. Then you will see what an unbelievable ruts looks like. Plus, the roost will keep everyone WAAAAAY behind you.
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Anyways, I raced my 250cc 2 stroke against the 450's and let me tell you that is twice the work at a racing pace.. 4 stroke have that grunt/torque power delivery than a 2 stroke would never have.. No mistakes are allowed.. The biggest advantage of the 2 stroke is the weight and flickability. And also.. 4 stroke are really good at making deep ruts like no tomorrow... it's unbelievable!
How can you say the 4T has more grunt/torque? It has 80% MORE displacement! No wonder it has more torque. It's not because it is technologically superior. It's just flat bigger. 250F'S get 100% and it's like people wonder why they are easier to ride. So, my suggestion to you is this: spend about 40-60 hours on a 500 2T. Learn how to ride it. You will be less fatigued (I know, that right there goes against conventional wisdom, but it's still true) and SHOULD be able to ride faster on it. Bu YOU need to adapt to IT. It doesn't work the other way around. If you don't have the ability to procure a European 500, you can almost duplicate it with a KX 500 (it's a little tougher with the CR because it lacks a power valve). Put a pipe on it, dual stage reeds and the biggest flywheel weight you can buy. Spend the rest of your money LEARNING to ride it. Then you will see what an unbelievable ruts looks like. Plus, the roost will keep everyone WAAAAAY behind you.
what he said
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not talking about the damn big bore! lol We cannot race them anymore! Real world racing.. not some casual/week-end stuff. I know about the double displacement difference... 4 stroke learning curve is faster and they are easier to ride on the long run... Less clutching, you don't have to stay on the pipe,you can be lazy, the power delivery is like electrical with no feelings/surprises. yeah guys get over it! 4 stroke have a bit more advantages than the double displacement..They can make an average rider shine!
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Anyways, I raced my 250cc 2 stroke against the 450's and let me tell you that is twice the work at a racing pace.. 4 stroke have that grunt/torque power delivery than a 2 stroke would never have.. No mistakes are allowed.. The biggest advantage of the 2 stroke is the weight and flickability. And also.. 4 stroke are really good at making deep ruts like no tomorrow... it's unbelievable!
How can you say the 4T has more grunt/torque? It has 80% MORE displacement! No wonder it has more torque. It's not because it is technologically superior. It's just flat bigger. 250F'S get 100% and it's like people wonder why they are easier to ride. So, my suggestion to you is this: spend about 40-60 hours on a 500 2T. Learn how to ride it. You will be less fatigued (I know, that right there goes against conventional wisdom, but it's still true) and SHOULD be able to ride faster on it. Bu YOU need to adapt to IT. It doesn't work the other way around. If you don't have the ability to procure a European 500, you can almost duplicate it with a KX 500 (it's a little tougher with the CR because it lacks a power valve). Put a pipe on it, dual stage reeds and the biggest flywheel weight you can buy. Spend the rest of your money LEARNING to ride it. Then you will see what an unbelievable ruts looks like. Plus, the roost will keep everyone WAAAAAY behind you.
I know what roost look/feel like coming from a rear tire of a 500cc 2 stroke! You guys are all pumped about 500cc 2 stroke...but I don't see them coming back soon in professional racing...sorry guys :(
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2smoker, I agree... as much as I'd like to see the big bore two-strokes come back into racing... I think that it will always be a much smaller segment of the racing community that will race them.
I've been saying for years that we need to get the 125cc two-stroke class separated from the 250F class. This is really the class for an up and coming racer to truly learn how to race motocross....
The 250 class MUST be straight up... no matter what. For those that say that it's not fair, how was changing the rules so they could compete in the first place fair? Seventy Two years of motocross history... changed over the past 12 years and now people "think" a four-stroke MUST be double the displacement. That rule has created more problems in motocross than almost anything we could talk about.
As for what total NZ talked about, that the 250F will still beat the 250 two-stroke, I admit it's possible. But with an asterisk... depends on the track and the racers involved. Honestly it's probably more rider than anything else. If the very best racers are all on four-strokes, yes they will beat the lesser skilled racers on two-strokes.
But remember there are some very good reasons why these racers choose the four-stroke, mostly the support they get from the manufacturers and/or dealers. Of course contingency money has a great deal to do with it as well. So it's pretty difficult to make any type of "blanket" statements one way or the other.
Just my $.02
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Anyways, I raced my 250cc 2 stroke against the 450's and let me tell you that is twice the work at a racing pace.. 4 stroke have that grunt/torque power delivery than a 2 stroke would never have.. No mistakes are allowed.. The biggest advantage of the 2 stroke is the weight and flickability. And also.. 4 stroke are really good at making deep ruts like no tomorrow... it's unbelievable!
How can you say the 4T has more grunt/torque? It has 80% MORE displacement! No wonder it has more torque. It's not because it is technologically superior. It's just flat bigger. 250F'S get 100% and it's like people wonder why they are easier to ride. So, my suggestion to you is this: spend about 40-60 hours on a 500 2T. Learn how to ride it. You will be less fatigued (I know, that right there goes against conventional wisdom, but it's still true) and SHOULD be able to ride faster on it. Bu YOU need to adapt to IT. It doesn't work the other way around. If you don't have the ability to procure a European 500, you can almost duplicate it with a KX 500 (it's a little tougher with the CR because it lacks a power valve). Put a pipe on it, dual stage reeds and the biggest flywheel weight you can buy. Spend the rest of your money LEARNING to ride it. Then you will see what an unbelievable ruts looks like. Plus, the roost will keep everyone WAAAAAY behind you.
I know what roost look/feel like coming from a rear tire of a 500cc 2 stroke! You guys are all pumped about 500cc 2 stroke...but I don't see them coming back soon in professional racing...sorry guys :(
What you say is true. But it doesn't alter the fact that if the rules were fixed, you wouldn't see nearly as many 4T's out there. And if left alone (the rules) the 4T dirt bike would resume it's position in the industry as an anomaly, a relic for discussion of "remember those days" that we all laugh about.
Open class 2T's are not here because JAPAN wanted it that way. I refer you to what DC said in his reply to my article. I will tell you from personal experience: a "modern" 450 hampers your ability to go fast. But, we can all come on here and regurgitate what is barfed out by the industry, and then wonder why the young riders are so ignorant. History reveals the evils of Japan, and the desire to dominate business, as is evident in the history of motocross. The "modern" 4 stroke has done absolutely ZERO for off-road motorcycling. Period. No one has become a better rider, no one is going faster, and almost everyone has less money, less enjoyment and MANY fewer places to ride. That is FACT. Mitch Payton (Pro Circuit owner) said 4 strokes did NOTHING except TRIPLE the cost of racing. Only a fool would argue with him.
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Interview with Mitch Payton: http://motocross.transworld.net/features/catching-up-with-mitch-payton/ (http://motocross.transworld.net/features/catching-up-with-mitch-payton/)
Changing subjects a little bit, we sat down with the NPG last week. What are your thoughts on allowing a 250 two-stroke in the Lites class?
I donâ??t think itâ??s a good idea from the standpoint that there is already a rule in place that allows you to ride a 250 two-stroke. Itâ??s not like anybody is banning it. You can ride it in the 450 class. So if itâ??s due to an expense, you can race that bike. There is already this rule in place, so I donâ??t think it belongs in the old 125 class. It was never intended for that. The second part of that I do not agree with is that almost all the manufacturers decided to stop making the 250 two-stroke, so why should they spend millions of dollars to produce a bike that many wonâ??t buy. Itâ??s done.
As far as Pro Circuit is concerned, how much of your business is still two-stroke?
Iâ??d say that our two-stroke sales have probably fallen off by 60 percent in the last few years. I think thatâ??s mainly because nobody is competing on them and three brands donâ??t even sell them anymore. Theyâ??re still selling some of them in Europe, which we still sell some product over there. The only two-stroke stuff that we do really well on, though, is mini bikes. A majority of all mini bikes are two-strokes, so thatâ??s good, except for Honda. Even Honda doesnâ??t make an 80cc anymore. They discontinued that and instead have the 150F. So, I think for them to make this rule two or three months before the outdoors is a bad idea because the manufacturers have already gone down that road and theyâ??re not going to turn around.
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I'm sorry if the above post is too harsh for some. I'm personally so sick of hearing 4T lies and innuendo I'm ready to quit motorcycling all together. No matter how hard we work, or how much effort is put forth, the ignorant among us come out and defend the "modern" 4T. Do you remember when, every time a new bike came out, the comic books told us "It's F-1 technology"? Remember that? I do. And they have stopped. Because myself, and many many others wrote to the lying editors of the comic books and sent PROOF that not a single "modern" 4T EVER used anything resembling F-1 technology. They lied to YOU and YOU bought it (painting with a broad brush here). How many of you have seen F-1 technology, other than in a magazine? How many of you have seen the valve train of a Formula 1 engine? Just for the record, they are relatively small displacement engines, that last time I looked, don't even use valve springs! Have you seen that on your YamaZukiSakiHondaBergKTM? It's silly to see the same error repeated over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over, even though the corrections have been published.
I'm old enough now to where I really no longer give a damn if I help anyone learn anything. Essentially, the Japanese, with the consent of AMA and the American motorcycling public have won. I just don't care anymore.
And don't bother calling me a racist. I don't like anyone. I don't care who you are or where you come from.
M.S.
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Interview with Mitch Payton: http://motocross.transworld.net/features/catching-up-with-mitch-payton/ (http://motocross.transworld.net/features/catching-up-with-mitch-payton/)
Changing subjects a little bit, we sat down with the NPG last week. What are your thoughts on allowing a 250 two-stroke in the Lites class?
I donâ??t think itâ??s a good idea from the standpoint that there is already a rule in place that allows you to ride a 250 two-stroke. Itâ??s not like anybody is banning it. You can ride it in the 450 class. So if itâ??s due to an expense, you can race that bike. There is already this rule in place, so I donâ??t think it belongs in the old 125 class. It was never intended for that. The second part of that I do not agree with is that almost all the manufacturers decided to stop making the 250 two-stroke, so why should they spend millions of dollars to produce a bike that many wonâ??t buy. Itâ??s done.
As far as Pro Circuit is concerned, how much of your business is still two-stroke?
Iâ??d say that our two-stroke sales have probably fallen off by 60 percent in the last few years. I think thatâ??s mainly because nobody is competing on them and three brands donâ??t even sell them anymore. Theyâ??re still selling some of them in Europe, which we still sell some product over there. The only two-stroke stuff that we do really well on, though, is mini bikes. A majority of all mini bikes are two-strokes, so thatâ??s good, except for Honda. Even Honda doesnâ??t make an 80cc anymore. They discontinued that and instead have the 150F. So, I think for them to make this rule two or three months before the outdoors is a bad idea because the manufacturers have already gone down that road and theyâ??re not going to turn around.
So, here you have it. MP is worried about losing business. I have lost all respect for this man, and won't buy anything from PC EVER again. Boo Hoo, the factories aren't making 2T's anymore. Ok that is a lie, and that's what I'm calling it. Lets see; Maico, Gas Gas, TM, Husky, KTM and Yamaha all make F'ing 2T's. And...Kawasaki is still producing them...for sale OUTSIDE the U.S.. I know for a fact HONDA is putting together 125's to race in Europe. Can anyone tell the truth anymore? Doesn't look like it. Looks to me like Mitch Payton loves to keep 300% more of YOUR money. In that, he is a crook and a cheat and a liar. He should be ashamed, but he doesn't have the morals to feel it.
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I'm sorry if the above post is too harsh for some. I'm personally so sick of hearing 4T lies and innuendo I'm ready to quit motorcycling all together. No matter how hard we work, or how much effort is put forth, the ignorant among us come out and defend the "modern" 4T. Do you remember when, every time a new bike came out, the comic books told us "It's F-1 technology"? Remember that? I do. And they have stopped. Because myself, and many many others wrote to the lying editors of the comic books and sent PROOF that not a single "modern" 4T EVER used anything resembling F-1 technology. They lied to YOU and YOU bought it (painting with a broad brush here). How many of you have seen F-1 technology, other than in a magazine? How many of you have seen the valve train of a Formula 1 engine? Just for the record, they are relatively small displacement engines, that last time I looked, don't even use valve springs! Have you seen that on your YamaZukiSakiHondaBergKTM? It's silly to see the same error repeated over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over, even though the corrections have been published.
I'm old enough now to where I really no longer give a damn if I help anyone learn anything. Essentially, the Japanese, with the consent of AMA and the American motorcycling public have won. I just don't care anymore.
And don't bother calling me a racist. I don't like anyone. I don't care who you are or where you come from.
M.S.
M.S. I am in the same boat.. It gets really frustrating..My sport that I am so passionate about is dying big time. The nowadays squids can go ride four stroke because I won't.
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"2-strokes are easy to work on, inexpensive to own and a blast to ride," boasted FMF founder Don Emler. "FMF hasn't forgotten most of us ride because it puts a smile on our face. When the idea came along for the 2-Stroke invitational, FMF jumped at the opportunity to get back to the basics." F*ck Payton!
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We should get a privateer team up ! and race Supercross which the 250 really shine :)
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We should get a privateer team up ! and race Supercross which the 250 really shine :)
Ding, ding, ding.... we have a winner!!
This is the direction that we need to move in. Beating the factories with their overweight, over sized four-strokes at they're own game. Even if the two-stroke entry does not win, it would be great to see it finish in the top 20 or possibly even lower.
There is someone that is supposed to be racing a 250 two-stroke in Supercross this year. I've written to him but have not yet heard back. It would be very important for all of us two-stroke fans to help in anyway that we possibly can.
For the outdoor Nationals I'm working with some very smart folks to field a YZ250 in some of the events. How many will depend on the support we are able to get for the project.
Don't give up hope just because of silly stuff written in magazines or on the web. It's a real shame that these folks have stated a lie for so long that they have begun to believe it themselves.
Remember it will mean a great deal of lost income to some select people when we win!
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I bet my paycheck that a lot of companies related to 2 stroke will jump on the idea for sure...FMF, Wiseco, Boyesen,any oil brands.anything related to freestyle...the rebellion! That will be so awesome!
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Anyways, I raced my 250cc 2 stroke against the 450's and let me tell you that is twice the work at a racing pace.. 4 stroke have that grunt/torque power delivery than a 2 stroke would never have.. No mistakes are allowed.. The biggest advantage of the 2 stroke is the weight and flickability. And also.. 4 stroke are really good at making deep ruts like no tomorrow... it's unbelievable!
I hear you 2smoker, i race against 450's also and a 250 2t will definately have trouble. The main advantage the 4bangers have is the huge amount of traction they get, they let you hold a high gear and launch at an obstacle straight out of a corner.
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Hey TotalNZ I'm confused! I thought in New Zealand the rules were 250 vs. 250? Why would you have to race a 250 two-stroke against a 450F??
The reason that they have the advantage you're talking about is because they are larger displacement, but you knew that already. Right? :o
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Hey TotalNZ I'm confused! I thought in New Zealand the rules were 250 vs. 250? Why would you have to race a 250 two-stroke against a 450F??
The reason that they have the advantage you're talking about is because they are larger displacement, but you knew that already. Right? :o
Yeah it's all 250's in one class now but you can still ride one in the open class against 450's if your keen enough. There's also a 125 only class now which i reckon's a great idea and i wouldn't mind racing in.
Yeah i know it's the CC's making the difference
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So here's a question. You say you can ride 250 in the 250 class or in the 450 class if you've got the balls. Would it be possible, then, to show up in the 450 class with a 450 2T? If so, I'd like to see someone arrive on a 430 Husky or 440 Maico and start kicking some ass. I'm guessing that's still not allowed, though.
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So here's a question. You say you can ride 250 in the 250 class or in the 450 class if you've got the balls. Would it be possible, then, to show up in the 450 class with a 450 2T? If so, I'd like to see someone arrive on a 430 Husky or 440 Maico and start kicking some ass. I'm guessing that's still not allowed, though.
That's not allowed. If you go to Canada they allow it in some classes. And the 450 pig riders squeal, especially when they get whooped by an air cooled, twinshocked, steel frame "relic" of equal displacement. Boo hoo on them :P >:D 8)
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That's just kick-ass.
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So here's a question. You say you can ride 250 in the 250 class or in the 450 class if you've got the balls. Would it be possible, then, to show up in the 450 class with a 450 2T? If so, I'd like to see someone arrive on a 430 Husky or 440 Maico and start kicking some ass. I'm guessing that's still not allowed, though.
Hell yeah you could, it's open class brother.