Two Stroke Motocross
Two Stroke Motocross Forum => General Two Stroke Talk => Topic started by: ridered125 on November 30, 2009, 07:05:10 PM
-
I mainly ride trails, enduros and hare scrambles. Not much on MX. But I love this site. The guy who has created this has some good instincts. It's been neat watching this site grow.
Saturday I was riding with a friend who has a WR 250. It's a well-maintained 2007 and a nice bike. We were pounding out some trail miles and took a break. He was checking out my bike - a 2003 KTM 200. We decided to switch bikes for a few miles and he took off in front. I've ridden, but not owned, some four strokes so I sort of knew what to expect. I can't ride the four strokes well. I was pulling and tugging on the machine and trying to bunny hop it over stuff. It was content to head down its path and when it did react to my input it reacted too late. I was getting tired and was truly fighting the motorcycle. I noticed by buddy, who rides about the pace I do, was pulling away.
The harder I tried to keep up and make the WR go faster, the slower I went.
After a few miles we switched back and I was glad to be back on the 2-honey. I know the WR is a good bike and I've been passed by them many times during races, but I haven't been able to figure out how to ride one without feeling like I was just in a wrestling match.
In the woods, a two-stroke, when set up, right is magical.
-
totally agree, hey, how does the weight of your bike compare to let's say, a 125
-
You are absolutely correct.... A friend of mine's son is a great rider, he's pretty good at MX, but in the woods he shines. Of course he wanted to drink the Kool-Aid like all of his friends who were on strokers. At the time he was one a 125, and was mid pack on the MX track against his buddies. In the woods, he was the master of slipping the clutch to where not many could keep up with him. He was always complaining that he was at a disadvantage because he was on a smoker.
Fast forward a few years, its time for a bike upgrade, and of course he wants a stroker. One of his friends who is tired of spending big bucks to keep the stroker intact, decides to get a KTM 250 sx. He goes from mid pack to the front. He too was trying to ride the stroker like a smoker. So now my buddies son sees the light, and gets a YZ250. Now he's in front of the pack of his friends, and in the woods... well lets just say, learning how to ride a 125 the right way, slipping the clutch and keeping it in the meat of the RPM's has really paid off, he flies through the woods.
His only complaint now is he needs a 450 to compete against the big bikes.... Some people are never happy....
-
The 200s weigh more than a 125 and it's noticeable. I rode a 125X in the woods once and it was great on an open, flowing trail and the sound it made was really neat. It felt like riding a bicycle. But when the trail got nasty and tight, the 125 wasn't as nice as the the 200. The 200, when it is jetted right and running crisp, really will carve up a trail.
-
what is the power compared to a 125?
-
The low end of the 200 is much stronger than a 125. The power delivery is also quite a bit "smoother" and linear than a 125. They are fun bikes to ride.
If you are interested in one you should see if you can get a test rie on one to see what you think.
-
The KTM's have an adjustable powervalve that can turn the 200 into a tractor. I've set the powervalve to make the motor less pipey and added a flywheel weight and a carb needle that also aims to make the motor smoother.
Without these mods, the bike was would wheelie and spin the back wheel unexpectedly, not good when on a tight trail.
-
I've got a KTM 250 SX yr 2004 and I dont think the adjustable powervalve is that good. If you put the red spring in (loosest) then it opens the power valve quickly so when you hit the powervalve rev range it give more of an instant 'hit' where as if you put the tighter spring in then it means when you hit the powervalve rev range it takes longer for the valve to open and therefore there is less of a 'hit' - I tried doing that as an experiment and it was sooo boring like riding a 4 stroke there was no powerband hit at all - just one linear curve all the way through the revs. The thing is also it's a miss conception that the tighter spring gives you more power low down, it just alters the way the power valve comes in during the higher revs -
I've decided to sell my SX250 yr 2004 cos I also have a KX250 yr 2000 and it is has a much more intense power spread. The KTM seems to have been stock tuned to have a little more power low down at the expense over hit up top. Like 30% on the bottom and 70% up top, my KX250 has 20% down low and 80% up top - the eKX is tuned for maximum impact and it makes my laugh my head off when I ride it cos its sooo much fun. I dont see the point in watering down the top end power for a little more bottom cos its taking the fun out of the powerband / weakening it, its a crap compromise. Yeah the KTM is ok - its a laugh and it still pretty fast when you have the red spring in but it doesnt make me screem like my KX..
(http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t204/westyz/DSC00029111.jpg)
-
a thumper is like riding a harley through the woods
-
Well you know, back in the day....
Cry Baby! (HD) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-GO1yWJIAw#ws)
-
JETZcorp, you certainly like the old machines don't you?
You're our vintage two stroke promoter!!
Yes the riders of old were as tough as nails.. they rode machine with little or no suspension travel, but the speeds that they raced on the dirt were lower than today.
Some of the advancements are good. Some years back I built a vintage machine and raced it, sure it was fun and enjoyable, but I enjoy the newer machines. In no way would I discount the old bikes, it's just that I prefer the latest stuff.
I'm really looking forward to riding/racing my new 2010 TM 125MX!! 8)
Oh yeah... nice video!
-
I think they were actually faster back then. Think about long, sweeping natural-terrain tracks dotted with CR480s and and YZ465s and RM400s and such. Even before then, those guys who ran with 5" of travel in the back (if they were lucky enough to ride Maico, did you know that AHRMA make you restrict your shocks if you enter a '74 Maico, to keep things "fair") went fast as hell. They just stood on the pegs and let the bike buck like they do, then keep going. Here's another "back in the day" video from warmup day of the '74 USGP at Carlsbad (RIP). This video brings back a lot of memories, which is interesting because it was shot 17 years before I was born. I guess I read too many old issues of DB and MXA.
Carlsbad Grand Prix of Motocross, 1974, Part1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vlh9bB3VzT4#)
-
JETZcorp - Man you are a young guy!! Not that it's a bad thing but.. I have fillings that are older than you! LOL
The first race I attended was in 1970 at a track called Fishkill. It was a scrambles (the stuff before motocross) and it was the tie when there were both two strokes and four strokes competing. At the time it was the fastest I'd ever seen anything go in my life!
The first race I competed in was in 1975 on a Honda CR125 and I promptly finished dead last! I had no idea what the hell I was doing. Although I did get better years later.... ;D
My first professional race was in 1976 at Unadilla. To say it was amazing would be an understatement. At first glance I was unable to see the track!! When the track was opened for practice I found out why. The grass was almst three feet deep around the entire track!! The grass was mixed into the dirt and turned the dirt into the most amazing loam I had ever seen.
The other surprise was that under that grass the track still had all the bumps, ruts and whoops from the races before. If the used a machine any where on the track I would be surprised.
This was the first time that I got to see all my heroes race. Roger DeCoster, Jim Pomeroy, Brad Lackey, Marty Smith, Bob Hannah and so many others. It was the best day ever!
As a strange side story, before practice there was a guy on a Maico doing the most amazing slow wheelies. I found out later that the guys name was Doug DeMokous (sp?) and he raced the support class that day.
As you can see I've been around for a little while.
In 2009 I attended the Unadilla Pro National. The bikes are so much better in so many ways than back then. The speeds are higher, although they changed the track significantly to make it flow differently which means there were no slow speed sections like back in the 70's. And they groomed the track smooth! It was almost ready to be paved... but I digress..
The new bikes and riders go much faster. But there are a few caveats. The length of the races now are 30 minutes plus two laps, back then it was 40 minutes plus two laps. Those extra 10 minutes really made a difference, because a great deal of passing occured by the top riders in those last 10 minutes. It truly separated the men from the boys.
In no way was it a sprint race like today. You could see that the racers had heart. They battled their bikes, the tracks and their competitors. When someone passed someone, usually the racer they passed did not give up and let them go. They raced with them and passed them back.
The point of all this? While the past was amazing and the racers were tough, attempting to compare the racers from the past to the racers of today would be difficult if not impossible. Although the depth of really good riders today is no where near what it was back then.
The bikes are better, I know that for a fact. Having been there, ridden so many bikes, attending and competing in many years of racing and from bein a real fan of the sport.
The old days were fun, but time changes and you move forward. Some things change for the better and some change for the worse. I'd much rather ride/race a new bike than an old one, no matter how good the old ones were.
For those that are interested I found this video. It's from a race at Unadilla, the guy that posted it thinks that it's from 1975 but from looking at it I would say that it's from 1977 or possibly 1978.If you watch closely you will notice that the track has remained similar, but there were much tighter sections. In which I believe made racing much more interesting.
Later in the video there are some local races, these are some of the tracks that I raced on when first starting out. There is no sound, because it was shot using a film camera and at that time having sound was very rare for the amateur.
This is the perfect example of the differences between "back in the day" and today. In the 1970's if you wanted to record moving pictures, you used 8mm or 16mm film. On the 8mm film cameras, the film cartridge was 50 feet long, good for approximately 3 minutes of footage. You had to send the film out to be processed. :o
A week or two later you got it back. Then you had to set up a screen and projector to watch your master piece. If you wanted to edit it into a longer film you had to splice the actual film together onto a larger reel.
Today almost everyone has something to record video and sound. In fact it's in many cell phones!
I know which one I prefer! 8)
Sorry for the rant!!
Enjoy!
1970's Motocross - District 34 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDa2rXKOdxk&feature=related#)
-
Those videos bring back memeories. I have been racing aloonnnggg time, since the 70's too.The bikes were much harder to ride back then. I also walked to school up hill 10 miles both way uphill in the snow here in south Texas(that's what I tell my kid's). We rode what we had and loved it! The suspension, power, reliability, brakes. Everything has improved. A friend and I were talking about the good old days, and the bikes. I was lamenting about how I missed all the bikes from way back. I still love the BaDang BaDang BaDang of a 400 Maico coasting down at the vintage races. He then proceded to remind me my KX500 is from the good old days(ie. antique). It makes the same noises, it just handles, and stops much better than all my 1970's stuff. These are the good old days!
-
Well, I will admit that the new bikes are better for the new environment. An aluminum-framed YZ450F will probably beat a 490 Maico almost everywhere you can find to race today. I have yet to be convinced that it would do so if you shipped the YZF to Carlsbad circa 1982, where it was all about power and bumpiness, rather than hairpins and airtime.
But, going back to really old, pre-long-travel stuff, there's a different comparison to be made. There are very few situations in which a 1973 bike is going to beat a 1980 bike or a 2010 bike. But, I think the guy on the 1973 bike is going to have a lot more fun. Between my two bikes, there is no question over which performs better. One has at least three times more power, has three times the suspension travel and is more comfortable to ride. But the other is more fun. The most fun I've ever had on a motorcycle was on the 120, screaming up a trail that followed some power lines. Even though I had to ride a lot slower than I wanted to because of the rear tire constantly banging into the fender, I look back on it as one of the greatest experiences of my life. The old thing has so much personality it just seems to drip from every bolt and waft around in the exhaust. It's a technical disaster compared with the newer Husky, but when it comes to take the bike out and ride, it's a masterpiece among masterpieces.
-
Well alright.... maybe I'm a little too literal at times!!! It's hard to express certain emotions while typing...
In no way am I saying that the four-strokes are better then the bikes of old. But some of the technology of today is a huge improvement from the "good old days" Besides I'd rather ride a Maico 490 than any modern 450F, no matter the "improvements".
The thing is that I have a tendency to enjoy the small bore bikes (125's are my favorites) and the handling, power and suspension of the new ones make them more fun for me to ride. While the bike does not need to be brand new, I do like the bikes with disc brakes on both ends and newer suspension.
JETZcorp, you've hit the nail directly on the head!! At the end of the day it's all about the grin factor. Whenever have fun riding your bike.... it's a great day.
Thank you for putting that into perspective.
-
John I agree. It can be kinda hard to get the thoughts across w/o it seeming so cut and dry. The new(er) stuff is more fun for me as well. However the vintage stuff is still an fun adventure, they just beat me up too bad(knees, 2 torn rotator cuffs, wrist, etc..). Our tracks are very rough, deep sandy loam with some decent elevation changes. When I stopped racing motocross in 2004, I decided to ride just for fun! That's why I went back to a KX500. One of the funnest bikes I have raced/owned. The sponsorhip agreements I had while racing the last couple of years, forced me to ride a 4T. They can be ridden very fast in the woods. The thing, is in a 2hr Hare Scramble, or a GP(simular w/MX Track added in), their added weight made it far harder for me to maintain a competetive pace towards the end. Not to mention the dead engine starts! I was at a definate disadvantage racing those things against 250 2T's in the tight stuff. Heaven forbid it rained. Ican truly say you guy's are right about the fun part. In my opinion if you like what you ride that's really all that matters. Every 2T I have ever ridden was fun, each had at least one thing that was unique to that bike. From my MR-50 to My KX500's.
-
I started riding / racing in the early 70's. When I moved up and purchased a Honda Ellsinore 74 CR250M, I was on top of the world. I was pretty competitive at the MX scene, but as time went on, I could not keep up with the long travel suspended bikes. The motor the Else, was not much different of modern smokers, it was just trying to keep the rear wheel on the ground. As time went on the jumps got bigger, and the long suspended bikes would just pull away.
Long story short, I loved the bike so much, that when I took a 25 year hiatus from riding, I just parked the bike.... I took her out of storage, drained the fuel, put fresh fuel in.... and she fired after 10 kicks... yes it barely ran with plugged jets, but it still ran... I cleaned her up and rode it for a few years before selling her to a vintage racer, and moved up to modern bike.
The power of the 99 KX250 I purchased was equal to or maybe a little less the the Else, but the suspenders.... wow what a difference.
Here is a pic of my beloved Elsie, when I sold it in 2005, it still had the original front tire, and I still had the original exhaust system.
(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b125/eprovenzano/74CR250M.jpg)