Two Stroke Motocross
Two Stroke Motocross Forum => General Two Stroke Talk => Topic started by: Chris2T on January 10, 2010, 02:41:00 PM
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I previously believed the only way 2 strokes were going to see a rebirth (since legislation won't help us) was through direct injection. This is not to say that the rules in motocross couldn't be changed to allow existing carb'd bikes equal displacement and therefore a rebirth that way, but as far as 2 strokes becoming mainstream again, i thought it had to be via direct injection. But after watching the Rotax E-Tec videos over and over http://www.ski-doo.com/brphtml/skidooenginetech/en/Index.htm (http://www.ski-doo.com/brphtml/skidooenginetech/en/Index.htm) it occured to me that this kind of technology - which would be unbelievably awesome and revolutionary for a streetbike - is exactly what we DON'T need for the dirt. Everyone complains about the high entry fee and nightmare rebuilds of 4 stroke mx racing. Well the E-Tec is LOADED with technology and expensive bits - an ECM that is cooled by fuel, high tech fuel pump, complex injectors, complex oil pump, intricate exhaust valve. Bits tend to fail no matter how well built they are. I'd like to keep it simple and inexpensive. Perhaps use the lower tech Semi-direct injection or Ficht systems - greener than carbs and very frugal with fuel. We aren't talking about bikes that need to pass emission standards anyways.
The one added expense i'd like to see become standard on all 2 stroke mx bikes regardless of fuel delivery is Oil Injection. A well designed system would add maybe a pound or so, and since it would borrow from existing technology, wouldn't add much to the cost of the bike. But it would eliminate yet another reason why people should go 4 stroke (yes i know about frequent oil changes on mx 4 strokes). And less people buying 4 stoke is how we get our beloved 2 stroke back.
Thoughts?
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I don't like oil injection.It's good but if it fails-and it's not uncommon,the results are catastrophic,and usually come with little warning.As for DI,as stated elsewhere,I love FI but on a dirt bike I think it adds too much weight and unnecessary complication.Regardless,the likely question for the future of the 2t in these perceived epa friendly days is -Do you want a DI 2t or none at all.I'm betting that's how it will go.
On a side note,oil injection is available for most KTM models from the factory as in some markets they are sold this way.The fiche that came with both my KTM's had the part $'s listed in it.
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The line, "we aren't talking about bikes that need to pass emission standards" scares me a bit. Personally, I've never ridden on a motocross track and don't intend to make a habit of it, but I do ride in the forest using MX bikes. A lot of people do. While it may seem silly to make a racing bike keep up with emission needs because it doesn't apply to the tracks it's designed for, I think the non-track-riders represent a fairly large part of the market. I'm not sure if there are emission standards for forest riding, but I've heard that in California, you're not even allowed to take an MX bike on trails or into the woods. It's either got to be turned off, or on a track. Why is that? It might be a concern for safety, because MX bikes tend to be fast, but I think it's a push to get the evil, baby-seal-killing two-stroke motocrossers off the trails and replaced with nice fluffy XR250s and such. Besides, even when you take the law out of it, I think that making a bike that's AT LEAST comparable to a 4T in emissions is the right thing to do. If we can do it in a simple package (ex nay on the injection) whilst increasing performance, so much the better.
I'm not trying to imply that you're against clean bikes or that we need to abandon performance in the name of pleasing the hippies, but I just want to point out that our beloved two-strokes have done some pretty serious damage to Southeast Asia, and a lot of that pollution gets blown 'round the world. We don't want to be making any more of that if we don't have to, especially when there are governing bodies that have shown a history of out-right banning things that hurt environmental quality. Direct Injection has been shown to improve the two-stroke in this category dramatically, as I'm sure you guys already know. That makes it an option for the future, but not the only one.
Just thought I'd throw that out there.
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I want a cleaner, better 2 stroke bike and it only can be achieved by direct injection just like the ski-doo and envirude engines! As far as I know OSSA did it on 2 wheels without compromising the performance and adding weight. Getting a custom map done for the injection system is not that expensive also. Everybody has a frigging laptop...
This baby rocks!!!
Onthulling Ossa TR 280i Trialmotor 01 www.nieuwsmotor.nl (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6WNUNvnSYY&feature=related#ws)
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I think the Ossa injects into the crankcase, doesn't it? Besides, I think there's been some talk about some special carb (3-circuit, was it?) that can match the emissions performance of injection without need for a laptop. Because seriously, if something on a carb goes wrong, you can tear it apart and fix it. If some little electrical thing gets fried in the injector, chances are you're gonna be SOL until you can wheel your bike up to someone with a few phD's in circuitry and computers, by which time your weekend will have long ago been ruined. And that's assuming it goes wrong in camp. What if it goes wrong out past the Devil's Tee (the magical intersection at which a bike always breaks down) and you're 20 miles from the truck? With a carb you might have a chance at getting it fixed, but with an injector I suspect (though I'm not 100%) that it would be a bit more difficult.
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The new OSSA website is up and running! http://www.ossafactory.es/intro.html (http://www.ossafactory.es/intro.html)
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I see electronic fail.
and we even have some of those components on a mx bikes to day
i have seen oil pumps fail but actually very few, and those are very light too
but the minus would be the 2stroke oil not the plastic tank since they are now weight at all.
the good thing would be you dont need to jet the bike
and if the bike is anything like the ktm 85
you dont need to split the bike almost in half to test idle jets
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I'm for DI, but in MX which is closed course racing it isn't really necessary. Why? Because the EPA can't regulate it unless they want to kill racing altogether. That's my take on it. For other applications, such as on road, DI would be a necessity because of pollution control. Isn't this like the tenth time I have said that.
Not trying to bust any ones stones, but this has been talked about a few times in the technical section. Read it up. Finally electronics have come a long way since the vacuum tubed Bendix days(1950's), so electronics being unreliable is crock of you know what. Don't forget every modern bike has electronics, which is the ignition module. Has yours craped out recently? Not mine. ;D :P
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I'm for DI, but in MX which is closed course racing it isn't really necessary. Why? Because the EPA can't regulate it unless they want to kill racing altogether. That's my take on it. For other applications, such as on road, DI would be a necessity because of pollution control. Isn't this like the tenth time I have said that.
Not trying to bust any ones stones, but this has been talked about a few times in the technical section. Read it up. Finally electronics have come a long way since the vacuum tubed Bendix days(1950's), so electronics being unreliable is crock of you know what. Don't forget every modern bike has electronics, which is the ignition module. Has yours craped out recently? Not mine. ;D :P
I guess we can wait and see when the fi systems on the yamaha's, Suzuki's, Honda's, and kawasaki's break down, but, I don't think they will, just look at car fi.
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The car electronics have come along way to hold the 100,000 mile federal warranty. So I really don't think they will fail, maybe some will because of defective parts. I have seen some weird stuff with car electronics though, thanks to all the emissions and integrated crap, such as immobilizers, and trans control built in to a ecu. I don't blame the people who fear electronics, they do some what complicate things. For example my car wouldn't start on day, I checked every thing. For some odd reason I could swear it was the clutch switch (even after pulling it out and checking resistance). I disconnected the connector and jumped the two wires, voila my car fires right up on the first try. I read the Alldata and guess what, it was wrong. >:D
The car drove fine until the ball joint snapped. But that just goes to tell you if a switch fails it can take some time to figure out the problem. Then again electronics can complicate things and that's why people don't like it. For me I like the challenge. Maybe I should FI a two stroke for shits and giggles. :P
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Not to complicate things but I have a few random thoughts to add....
There are two systems being bandied about FI and DI... probably could retro-fit a current MX bike to FI in your garage (if it's a very well stocked garage and your an engineer) but a DI bike would be much more difficult for even a very sophisticated engineer/machinist to integrate into an MX bike.
The two-strokes being used in southeast Asia are mostly powered by KE125 two-stroke motors.... which is older technology and highly polluting. My guess is that they would pollute less with new style engines, but it would be more expensive. So there is a retro-fit program to add DI to these machines and it's making a difference.
While I'm not sure of the exact figure, what I recall is that 70% of motocross bikes sold do NOT ever see a motocross track! They are used for play bikes, trail bikes, desert bikes, etc, etc.... While closed course racing (Motocross) does not have any emissions, this doesn't show the complete story. The EPA and Euro standards are taking this into consideration and the responsibility falls to the manufacturers to ensure that these machines meet the standards set.
Obviously this is a law with lots of loop holes created by our friends in D.C. and those with close ties to them receive relaxed standards... just the way of the world...
The DI systems hold the most promise for lowering emissions on two-strokes and is the reason this question comes up so often. But the question remains is it something that would work well for motocross racing applications.... a big un-known at this point.
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dont forget this http://www.motorcycle.com/manufacturer/honda/honda-exp2-14293.html (http://www.motorcycle.com/manufacturer/honda/honda-exp2-14293.html)
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The technology is there but the manufacturers want to build and sell 4 strokes. Nothing to do with EPA, just ca$h. It is a business and Japaneses are hungry. If you want 2 stroke back, we have to stop buying the damn junk. :-* and feeding them.
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aprillia have had it on theire scooters for a few years now
http://www.aprilia.com/en-US/Model/74/SR+50+R+FACTORY/Technical.aspx]
[url]http://www.aprilia.com/en-US/Model/74/SR+50+R+FACTORY/Technical.aspx (http://[url)[/url]
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I'll give a few of my repetitive thoughts.
1. Most guys don't tune their bikes correctly. This includes all those who THINK they have it right, but they don't.
2. EFI and DI won't fix stupid. Stupid SHOULD hurt. I have been around long enough to see tune ups so screwed up it's not funny. And you can't help these guys. It's the way they have been doing "it" for years, and their stuff doesn't "blow up", even though I have not killed any parts in forever.
3. Pay close attention here, because Mad Scientist is going to go prophetic on you. IF you get EFI or DI you WILL get testing, catalytic converters and all the same crap you have on your car. I KNOW that the government was testing 2T emissions in the late 60's and early 70's. They could get the bikes clean enough, but the oils (and other factors go in here) were not god enough to lube at those lean ratios. Now you know why Mad Scientist bitches constantly about tune up and using JUNK oil (I'll say it here, 927 Castor is one of those that falls into this category). You guys make it 1000 times harder on those in the trenches to fix the PERCIEVED problem of 2T's, that being emissions. That is a huge part of the problem. And guys have their bikes smoking all the time, spooge running out the pipe like Niagara Falls and people SEE this. These morons THINK it is a problem.
It is on YOU, those who think any oil is good, that 2 "smoker" is a good saying and you use it all the time, you guys whose bikes smoke like Cheech and Chong on a blow out party day, you whose spooge covers my bike, my goggles and leaves a rainbow of colors in EVERY SINGLE mud puddle you go through...you guys need to learn about oils and tune up. A 3 circuit carb, good oil and a RACE tune up (even for MX bikes in the woods, that's all I've ever rode in the woods...MX bikes) will do MUCH to help in the battle to keep 2T's around. WE are as much the problem as AMA and Japan. GET WITH IT.
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In case I wasn't perfectly clear on the issue...I'm AGAINST DI and EFI for single cylinder 2T dirt bikes. 8)
Sorry for the confusion :P
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And guys have their bikes smoking all the time, spooge running out the pipe like Niagara Falls and people SEE this.
Oh man, that's a good one. ;D
you guys whose bikes smoke like Cheech and Chong on a blow out party day
WTF????? :o Now that was too much. I almost died when I read that, maybe I should put the joint down. LOL!! :-X
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I'm a bit confused why you continually refer to DI and EFI together when they are two completely seperate entities.
EFI is just another method of putting the fuel into a "conventional" engine (for want of a better word), whereas "direct injection" is a completely different type of engine and in many respects warrants little comparison with what we are familiar with as a two stroke.
It does however still retain many of the characteristics that I love of the two-stroke, light weight, relative simplicity (yes even the DI ones), cheaper manufacture, noise, easier and cheaper re-builds, etc, etc.
EFI is an alternative method of fueling.
DI is an alternative type of 2-stroke.
So by knocking DI you are in effect knocking the very engines which we are on here to support?
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diesel engines are DI and have been for years the intake valves just let air into the cylinder .
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diesel engines are DI and have been for years
Indeed, and they can achieve a thermal efficiency in excess of 50%, which is more than twice that of the average 4 stroke petrol engine.
So the principle of DI is sound and proven elsewhere. It's the Japanese domination which is slowing it's take up in the two-wheeled world but hopefully it will get there eventually.
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Guys! I see DI 2 stroke everywhere here in the Winter and the ski-doos sound really good! just a bit less pop-corn. Oh well! the guys put aftermarket pipes and the thing frigging scream still! and the thing is just bad-ass and has power everywhere..You guys worry way 2 much lol
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I refer to EFI and DI at the same time because I don't like either on a SINGLE CYLINDER 2 STROKE DIRT BIKE.
Sorry, I have never seen the internal combustion engine that is more than about 30% efficient, regardless of DI or fuel used. ICE's are NOT thermally efficient.
Explain to me how the clutches and transmissions work in a snowmobile. Then we can discuss it.
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Explain to me how the clutches and transmissions work in a snowmobile. Then we can discuss it.
Snowmobiles has a transmission? I thought they didn't. I'm no snowmobile guy so some explanation on this would be good. Don't they run off a CVT type clutch to go so fast. I hear these things are rockets in the snow.
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You say that DI can't fix stupid. Well, when stupid is causing smoke, and the DI just flat out *does not* put fuel into the cylinder until the exhaust is closed... well there you go. It's not going to fix stupid, but I think it'll put a pretty good set of training wheels on stupid. Stupid will easily be able to mess up the bike's power, but it won't be able to mess up the bike's emissions as easily, I think. How many people have a poorly-tuned carbed two-stroke that spews smoke? Everyone! Including me! How many poorly-tuned E-Tec engines have you seen spewing smoke? QED.
I'm still not solid on either method, but it seems to me that on the emissions angle, a carb would be harder to screw up on. But of course, I don't know much of anything about 3-circuit carbs, and haven't been keeping up in the Technical section.
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Guys.. Ski Doo Rev XP is pretty much the king of the sled world right now. Lighter, better fuel consumption, DI 2 stroke engine..
This is how a stocker sounds like... Almost no smoke.. the sled is indoor.. Like I said, there is less pop-corn sound to it...
08 MXZ Rev XP 800R for Sale (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPVFZZwNcMw#ws)
I like my 2 stroke but I also like the environment... I'll go in details later about the tranny and engine.
This is the same sled racing against a bigger displacement Yamaha 4 stroke... The video speak by itself..
Ski-Doo RevXP 800R vs Yamaha Apex RTX... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2fGHn2xLQE&feature=related#)
This is a Non-Di 2 smoker against a DI one. Same displacement. :-* The DI is on the right... The technology works really good! but they want you to buy 4 junk instead!!
2008 800 MXZ X REV XP vs 2002 800 MXZ X (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhN4ODn9MYQ&feature=related#)
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DI and EFI are the same cat's kitten.DI isn't a different type of 2t.Both describe a method fuel delivery-injection.EFI in the intake of a 4t,DI in the cylinder of a 2t.
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Like I said, a snowmobile ain't a dirt bike, no matter how hard you push for the comparison. I have not ridden a "snowmobile" (for various reasons) but I was required to work on them. It's like saying the Evinrude system will work on a dirt bike. It's a dam sight easier to make a trolling motor on a fishing boat work than a dirt bike.
As for the environment...I'll just say this. If you think the 2T is killing the planet you are sadly mistaken. I'll stop here because it goes into the area of education/indoctrination and many will get all butt hurt on me.
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According to the epa we must be.My last chainsaw had a catalytic muffler until it "disappeared"to be replaced by an older version.Most new stihls even have the high speed circuit fixed.
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It's obvious that the two-stroke isn't the root of all environmental evil, but that doesn't exactly mean it's doing cleansing work, either. I'd like to hear the Mad Scientist explanation for the blue haze that hovers over cities in SE Asia, which was notably reduced when the government decided that 4T was the law.
And don't think JETZ is getting soft here, because I should note that this move utterly destroyed the local economy, as no one could afford the maintenance or the "upgrade" itself, in spite of being forced to do so. The EnviroFit solution, which retrofitted the 2T to DI, proved not only to be cheaper than a regular 2T in the long run (fuel savings) but also cleaner than a 4T. But the fact remains, the old conventional 2T left a haze, the DI and 4T did not, or at least not to nearly the same extent.
HOWEVER!!! I think this point might actually be mute in the future. I present to thee, the future of fuel, algae! All the carbon in algae-based fuels must first be sucked out of the atmosphere, making an algae fuel (in theory) carbon-neutral. And because the raw product is virtually identical to crude, your resulting fuel is nearly identical as well, meaning that no modification of the engine is required. Above everything else, I think this path should be pursued most vigorously, because it would put an end to 100% of these little fuel usage and emissions debates.
Sorry for the rant, but I'm rather passionate about the algae.
FUEL Preview - Algae (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dz3ruTj0KYw#ws)
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DI and EFI are the same cat's kitten.DI isn't a different type of 2t.Both describe a method fuel delivery-injection.EFI in the intake of a 4t,DI in the cylinder of a 2t.
Sorry, should have made it plainer. I differentiate the two from the point of view that ANY engine whatsoever with a carb can be fuel injected. Only an engine designed for direct injection can be directly injected as it must be super-charged or in the case of the Di-Tec Aprilia fitted with an air-compressor to injected the combustion air into the engine.
For this reason I consider DI as much an engine design principle as a fuelling system.
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Sorry, I have never seen the internal combustion engine that is more than about 30% efficient, regardless of DI or fuel used.
If you search the net for papers by Professor/Doctor Robert Fleck of Queens University Belfast you might find figures in some of them. But certainly it is readily accepted that thermal efficiency in the region of 50% is commonplace in DI engines. Some manufactures claim 70% for the largest diesels but that seems a bit fanciful and I don't believe has ever been independently verified.
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It's obvious that the two-stroke isn't the root of all environmental evil, but that doesn't exactly mean it's doing cleansing work, either. I'd like to hear the Mad Scientist explanation for the blue haze that hovers over cities in SE Asia, which was notably reduced when the government decided that 4T was the law.
And don't think JETZ is getting soft here, because I should note that this move utterly destroyed the local economy, as no one could afford the maintenance or the "upgrade" itself, in spite of being forced to do so. The EnviroFit solution, which retrofitted the 2T to DI, proved not only to be cheaper than a regular 2T in the long run (fuel savings) but also cleaner than a 4T. But the fact remains, the old conventional 2T left a haze, the DI and 4T did not, or at least not to nearly the same extent.
HOWEVER!!! I think this point might actually be mute in the future. I present to thee, the future of fuel, algae! All the carbon in algae-based fuels must first be sucked out of the atmosphere, making an algae fuel (in theory) carbon-neutral. And because the raw product is virtually identical to crude, your resulting fuel is nearly identical as well, meaning that no modification of the engine is required. Above everything else, I think this path should be pursued most vigorously, because it would put an end to 100% of these little fuel usage and emissions debates.
Sorry for the rant, but I'm rather passionate about the algae.
FUEL Preview - Algae (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dz3ruTj0KYw#ws)
Ever been to LA? It has the same TYPE of problem, in that the lay of the land causes gases and particle matter to be trapped, unable to be cleansed out by normal motions of air. The same thing happens in China. It happens here in a town next to me. I can go up to a friends house in the hills overlooking the valley and you can see the trapped pollution. Scientists KNOW this it what actually occurs, but they are now PROVEN crooks, desiring to fleece you of not only money, but your liberties as well.
AND, lets not forget, the chinese were NOT tuning their little underpowered mopeds (obviously). If the 2T was tuned correctly, you wouldn't see the blue fog. It really comes down to ignorance in tuning. Now the chinese are payor theming for it. I don't care about them, nor do I feel sorry for them.
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Sorry, I have never seen the internal combustion engine that is more than about 30% efficient, regardless of DI or fuel used.
If you search the net for papers by Professor/Doctor Robert Fleck of Queens University Belfast you might find figures in some of them. But certainly it is readily accepted that thermal efficiency in the region of 50% is commonplace in DI engines. Some manufactures claim 70% for the largest diesels but that seems a bit fanciful and I don't believe has ever been independently verified.
MMS, help me out here. I did a search and found nothing. I found the Professor, but could find nothing he wrote. Post a link if you can.
Thanks.
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LA does have the same type of problem, but LA is also a lot larger. I mean, if you take some city in which your average citizen depends on a 2T scooter that he must SHARE with other families in the neighborhood, and compare that to the average resident of Los Angeles, you would expect to see massively more pollution coming out of LA. Yet, filtering masks aren't common in LA, while they are in SE Asia. This is because their health system is being ravaged by lung disease, at a far greater rate than LA. And when you take into account that perhaps as much as 1/3 of LA's air pollution was created in SE Asia and delivered via the jet stream, you start to get a feel for the perspective here.
And let's get real here, you're not going to be able to teach everyone over there to tune their carbureted 2T scooters to get rid of it. They don't have the the money to blow on jets, and they certainly don't have the time to research it and dick around in the garage with their money-maker. No matter how good a technology CAN be, it doesn't do any good if 99% of the buying public can't access it. That's where the DI conversion comes in; it allows the bike to roll out of the EnviroFit shop ready to go with no messing around whatsoever. The cost is covered with a micro-loan by the company. It's fast, it's easy, and it's cheap on an every-day scale. And regardless about whether you feel sorry for the Chinese (who are dropping their scooters and buying cars, by the way, thanks in part to Uncle Sam's spending spree), you should still feel sorry for yourself. Pollution that's made in China doesn't stay in China. A lot of that haze wafts its way over here and affects the lives and safety of all the Prius-driving hippies that crowd the streets here in Portland. Pollution doesn't give one flying ---- about borders, and when it comes to coming up with solutions, neither should we. Go into where there's a problem, fix the problem without creating new ones, and get out. DI fixed their 2T pollution problem, and it'll fix ours, however small ours may be. That's not up for debate as far as I'm concerned. The debate is whether it's the best technology to apply to the problem, in light of other possibilities. It's easy to blame the problem on public ignorance, but it's an amazingly difficult thing to fix. The traditional 2T doesn't have to smoke, and we don't have to have a Federal Reserve, but it does, and we still do.
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Mad scientist, are 3 circuit carbs available for cr125's, and if so how much do they cost, I am interested because I am getting kind of tired of having to carry gas in water bottles in my backpack on longer trail rides, and then I still have to drive into a gas station part way through my ride. Although, before I do get a 3 circuit, is there a way to make my bike more efficient while keeping power with my current carb? I will soon have the info on my bike so you guys can help me with setting up my bike for the race season coming up, it's just that i have to hack away the ice covering the door of my shed holding my dirt bike, a video of the bike revving is on it's way.
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MMS, help me out here. I did a search and found nothing. I found the Professor, but could find nothing he wrote. Post a link if you can.
Thanks.
Unfortunately more and more of the research work at QUB is being commercially funded and therefore the results less likely to find their way into the public domain so that probably explains why it can't be found.
I find out stuff at a personal level.
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And let's get real here, you're not going to be able to teach everyone over there to tune their carbureted 2T scooters to get rid of it. They don't have the the money to blow on jets, and they certainly don't have the time to research it and dick around in the garage with their money-maker. No matter how good a technology CAN be, it doesn't do any good if 99% of the buying public can't access it. That's where the DI conversion comes in; it allows the bike to roll out of the EnviroFit shop ready to go with no messing around whatsoever.
I'm very new here but I hope you don't mind me saying that you seem to have a slightly different outlook to some of the others. Could I hazard a guess that you are either younger or maybe just a bit more realistic about things?
It's disappointing to see the vote going against DI as it will reinforce the arguement by some that 2-stroke supporters are just a bunch of "has-beens" wallowing around in a haze of blue smoke and nostalgia. I love 2-strokes, both from a nostalgic point of view (70's road bikes, TZ race bikes, motocrossers) but also because I totally detest the way in which the removal of the two-stroke engine from the motorcycle scene has been engineered in such a callous and deliberate fashion.
But the thing is, the entire motorcycle industry in ambling along OK without 2-strokes and they will not come back at a meaningful level without bringing something new to the table. Telling people that they need to buck up a bit and learn how to set up a carburator, while possibly valid in many cases, simply will not cut it. However a motorcycle launched along the lines of "the 2-stroke is back, it's better than ever, and this is why................" just might.
I've loathed them for years but now have to admit that the very latest 600 sports bikes are absolutely epic, the handling, practicality, weight, reliability, and sadly now even the fun factor of them blows any stroker away simply because they are about 15 or 20 years more advanced than any 2-stroke road bike. This situation will eventually extend to motocross as well and the stroker will not have a way back, I love my Maicos but I also like to ride the best machinery available and if things don't change that may eventually by default have to be a 4-stroke purely from a chassis/suspension/braking development point of view. (*edit*-could I just add that if this unhappy situation does arise it will NOT be a Japanese bike, I will certainly not support those who wielded the knife in the first place)
I sincerely hope not but I also hope that some of the marketing people at KTM or Aprilia who might be considering investing money in DI 2-strokes aren't watching this forum to help gauge opinion.
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MMS - You have just succinctly put into words what I have been feeling about DI and what will be required to bring two-strokes back to the forefront.
Just "repackaging" what had been done in the past just will not cut it. There are boatloads of reasons that folks switch over to four-strokes, some real and some imagined. But when reading comments from four-stroke supporters one of the biggest reasons that they prefer the 4 over the 2 is.... now get this... they don't have to mix the gas!!
Some of the other reasons include torque (yes I realize that a bigger displacement bike has more torque) and ease of clearing obstacles without worry. Another is the lack of having to shift so much, in fact on the wish list of many four-stroke racers is the Recluse clutch!
Of course the bikes are shiny and new and have the "latest" styling and suspension. But almost every reason for these guys to love the bikes is for ease of riding. Your pour gasoline into the tank and ride! Simple.
For two-strokes to make a serious comeback on all levels, they will need to have some kind of "easy button" for marketing purposes to help sway legions of racers to switch. Telling them that they're stupid will do absolutely nothing to help our cause, and in fact hurt it in many ways.
I have heard second hand, that KTM does have test bikes that are DI. One of the guys that rode it thought it was great... the question is when will KTM release these machines? Or will they never do so?
It seems to me that shiny and new is a huge selling point for millions. Ease of use is the second....
Let's change the question to how can we forward our cause and make it shiny, new and easy for the regular guy?
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Jetzcorp gets the prize :P You said it...you want DI to fix stupid. It wont fix stupid. It won't fix bad rings. It won't fix leaky crank seals. It won't fix shitty oils. It won't fix stupid. We, as a group, need to STOP looking at China and India as a bellweather to guide what we do here. Your post makes my point EXACTLY.
3 circuit carbs are available for everything and anything. But you still need to understand tune up.
The brakes on a 1999 euro bike (read:anything Brembo) will stop as good or better than anything 2010. I know what the comic books write. They exist to sell you products and services YOU DON'T NEED.
If you like vintage Maico's, you would like new Maico's. The problem is with the "vintage" guys, especially Maico "vintage" guys. 99.99% of these guys have never seen a new Maico, yet they slam them with authority, like they have a knowledge of them. I posted a link on the forum somewhere of an article that John posted. A guy got off his late model HONDA 4T, sold it, because his 1981 490 Maico was BETTER in all aspects than his Honda was. Here is a guy who tells the truth. He was FASTER on it too. Let's see...air cooled, conventional forks, 2 shocks, and he says it is a better bike. And a steel frame.
It's time to get real and stop BS'ing ourselves and each other. The problem is with US, the guys who can't/won't/don't know how/won't listen/don't care how to tune your junky, smoking pig up.
I could care less about China, India, Japan or 4T's. Air cooled or not, your bike should not smoke or spooge. 99% of them do both. It's shameful.
Don't forget, the same people who are wearing dust masks in China smoke enough cigs to kill a dinosaur. That's right, CHINA SMOKES, way more than in the USA. Look it up. So don't tell me it' all 2T problems over there.
DI will NOT fix stupid, like I said to begin with. We were told that 4T's would make off road motorcycling better. It was a lie. DI will NOT save the 2T. That's what the who issue is.
Rant over, but know this. I could write a book to TEACH tune up. 75% of the riding population COULD learn something from it. But I read threads like this, and I come to the understanding that I would be wasting my time.
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I could write a book to TEACH tune up. 75% of the riding population COULD learn something from it. But I read threads like this, and I come to the understanding that I would be wasting my time.
Exactly, and that is where you loose YOUR arguement. The buying public is changing and how and what they are sold must change also. You don't need to write a tune up book, the market is full of them but people don't want them. They don't even want to go to the bother of reading what's in the books never mind go to the bother of putting it into practice.
As John says, where do you turn when people rejoice in not having to perform that soul destroying task (sarc) of not having to mix petrol. Never mind they'll have to change engine oil and filters more often than their underwear. Face the fact that if the buying public were smart and shrewd they'd never have went for the 4-stroke agenda in the first place, but swallow it they did, hook line and sinker!
I'll give the list of bikes I own at present, not to impress but to clarfiy my own stand point,
1974 RD350
1975 GT380
1978 RD400
1979 RD400
1984 NS400R
1984 RD500
1985 RG500
1994 NSR250 SE MC28
1981 490 MAICO
1984 500 MAICO (2 off)
So, I like my 2-strokes. But I own and run a motorcycle shop and make my living riding and working at all the modern stuff as well and more importantly spend all day every day dealing the motorcycle buying/riding/owning public. I have sitting in my workshop a TM125 crosser that I fixed for a guy a few months ago (nothing major, the bike is sound), Ohlins shock, Ohlins forks!!!!!!!!, Brembo brakes, sand cast crank cases, best of everything but he can't sell it because people "aren't sure about it".
I mean my god, what is there not to be sure about with a list of components like that? The problem is in reality that it doesn't say Honda, Kawasaki, Yamaha or Suzuki on it, that's what they're not sure about. Disgusting?....................yes, disheartening?.....................yes, sickening?............................yes, but sadly also reality.
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And your claim is DI will fix stupid?
Not gonna happen.
KTM is sitting on it (that's the rumor) and won't release it. They would have the corner on the market. Yet and still they sit on it. Why? It won't fix stupid.
The 4T didn't fix stupid, only amplified the problem.
And you are correct about the book. Why do you think I have't done it yet? Because it won't fix stupid. People will continue on with what they do, even if proven wrong. They would rather go on the internet, or worse yet, write Motocross Action and get their tune up there. How stupid is that?
I have found people are lazy (in more ways than one) and you can't fix that either.
So, I stand by my original statement. Not because I am smart (I'm not, I just refuse to ignore facts and lie to myself) but because I know stupid can't be fixed. I have been "in the business" most of my life. So I get it. In fact, I'm so synical...I'll stop here.
BUT...........many have DI and such, but none have adapted it to a dirt bike yet. It will be more trouble than it's worth, even if you don't premix. That's why one guy I knew had a 4T...he didn't wan't to premix. I doubt he could run a pop up toaster.
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The Asia Development Bank estimates there are 100-million two-stroke vehicles in South and Southeast Asia - each producing the pollution equivalent of 50 modern automobiles. The combined emissions of these 100 million vehicles equates to 10 times the emissions of all of the automobiles in the world....
Envirofit is using Orbital's OCP technology in retrofit kits to convert millions of two-stroke taxis to direct injection in the Philippines. Three-wheel taxis used in that country, which are roofed sidecars attached to motorcycles, are blamed for much of the heavy air pollution in Manila and other major cities in the Philippines and Southeast Asia.
Envirofit says its OCP kits reduce carbon monoxide emissions by 76 percent, carbon dioxide by 26 percent (one ton per retrofit per year), and hydrocarbon emissions by 89 percent, and two-stroke oil consumption is reduced by 35 percent, The heavy exhaust smoke disappear using this systems. Moreover, the 35 percent increase in fuel efficiency results in annual savings of ~$470 to the taxi drivers; thus, the ~$350 kit pays for itself within a year, and thereafter the drivers' incomes are increased substantially (~40 percent) for the remaining 15-20 year life of their vehicles.
The OCP two-stroke system is also used in Mercury's Optimax DFI outboard engines, in Tohatsu's TLDI DFI outboard engines, in Bombardier's SeaDoo personal watercraft, and in motorscooters manufactured by Aprilia, Piaggio, Peugeot and Kymco.
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You say over and over again that DI can't fix stupid. Thing is, it has. The stupid is still there in spades in SE Asia, as with everywhere else. The DI bikes don't smoke. The carbureted bikes do. These are the same people with the same level of stupid, the only variable here is the bike, and the problem is fixed.
And remember, we're talking about fixing stupid in the emissions department. I'm not claiming that DI is going to fix the stupid that causes a bike to run with less-than-perfect power. You're right there. But, it will fix the stupid that would cause Al Gore to douse our beloved two-strokes in biodiesel if he ever saw one. It's definitely a sad fact of life that people in general don't want to dedicate hours upon hours upon hours tinkering with their bike as though they were the tech crew for a Le Mans racer. It would be nice if we could all do that. It would also be nice if world poverty and warfare were ended, too.
If the MARKET is so lazy that they don't even want to mix oil and gas, then we need to craft the 2T for this market. That's how the forces of economics work. When you complain about how the public is the problem, and that they should change to conform to the old technology... Well... Let's just say that sounds distinctly "Honda" to me. Not so extreme, and certainly the idea of writing the book is less ethically horrible, but the principle is still the same. Don't fix the bike, fix the people. Not feelin' it here, boss.
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I would like to participate/spectate to any indoor Motocross races without choking on the air and having red eyes... I can deal without the smoke, just give me the sound and the snappy power of a 2 stroke and I will be more than happy! All the modern DI systems that I know so far improved performance and reduced emissions big time without adding weight to the old concept? What is the problems?
Btw Mad, How do you know tha KTM won't release their DI 2 stroke?
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I would like to participate/spectate to any indoor Motocross races without choking on the air and having red eyes... I can deal without the smoke, just give me the sound and the snappy power of a 2 stroke and I will be more than happy! All the modern DI systems that I know so far improved performance and reduced emissions big time without adding weight to the old concept? What is the problems?
Btw Mad, How do you know tha KTM won't release their DI 2 stroke?
We have been hearing about it for years. Have you seen one yet?
Head to a off road race and count how many pros are on KTM 2T's. Maybe 1. Yup, KTM's commitment to 2T's is right there.
Jetzcorp, again, let me say, if you think that DI will allow you to pour in oil and it will work the world over, in a RACE BIKE (I could give a rats ass about scooters)...I'll see it when it happens. As for Al Gore, pay very close attention here. He comes from a tobacco and oil family. He doesn't care if your dirt bike smokes or not. He doesn't want you on one PERIOD. You need to grasp that. DI won't fix that. If you think it will, you are setting yourself up for serious heartbreak. And, you constantly change the parameters. One minute it's that chinese are dying of lung cancer from 2T smoke (ignoring the fact that 99% of the population smokes cigs), the next is Al gore is peeing in your corn flakes. They have cars that are junk. Again, DI WON'T FIX STUPID. It will raise costs, the bikes won't look as "pretty" and they will still need some form of tune. Reality check here. When Mad Scientist says DI won't fix stupid, you need to look further than the end of your tail pipe.
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All I have to say is WOW!!! I just read this after my computer was down since last night. >:( Oh Commie China and Commie Al Gore are idiots. Al needs to preach his climate change in China, they'll listen to him. This is all I'm going to say about this subject, because if I do I'll be sent to Gitmo for hating Al Gore and commies.
Envirofit looks promising, but will the poor people of SE Asia buy it. Here is a little lesson about SE Asia countries, most of them are communist countries. Meaning they don't give dodo about there people or anything. They would rather put a bullet some where it don't belong for stupid reasons. Ok enough about this subject, time to move on.
Will KTM bring out a DI two stroke? Like Mad said, I'll believe it when I see it. Is it possible to DI two strokes, hell yea. You just need higher CPU speed, like a 32 bit proccesor. That's because the injectors need to inject at a certain time. Funny thing is 32 bit proccesors have been out for cars for a while and are not that expensive, but it's still an infant technology. Years ago I saw an article that had the Bimota V-Due 500, they took the stock ECU off and put a Motec M400 on it. It worked like a champ, no problem at all. But there are two problems, one the motec is over $4000, secondly I can't find the article on the net anymore. So some one took it off the net. Don't know why
Finally the biggest problem is the AMA. They changed into one big fascist company that would make Benito Mussolini a very very happy man, and would make me a pissed off man. The Japanese want control over everything, and the big culprit is Honda. People see this, but their so dumb they still buy brand new $10000 bikes from them. I will always refuse to buy a over priced, over weight POS 4 stroke.
That's what I think and I'm sticking to it !!! Next.
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i can't discuss this subject without being a little schizophrenic.
On one hand i dearly love all the great qualities of the traditional 2 stroke - the whole visceral appeal of the sound, smell, feel, look, cost, ease of maintenance, getting so much from so little, etc. they are just the perfect egnine, imo.
On the other, if 2 stroke mx bikes don't change with the times i can't imagine they would stick around. And i'm not talking about emissions, i'm talking advancements in performance and technology. Half the remaining 2 strokes are based on old designs. It's simply a matter of time before the technology just gets too old to compete at any level. the writing is on the wall and carburetors are clearly on the way out. sad but true. Small manufacturers like Maico and Ossa are keeping the flame going, but it will take a much larger effort using more advanced technology. If the YZ250 had a complete revamp and at least adopted EFI it would be a start. Aren't there any Big 4 executives who are passionate two stroke lovers like us?
One thing that i'm not schizophrenic about is the desire to see displacement parity brought back to motocross. Nothing that needs a handicap to win should ever be considered the top form of racing. the worst is the people in charge who pretend there's nothing wrong. I can't express the level of disgust i have for them.
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tell me why, if this "technology" exists, why no one is banking on delivering it to the market.
Well firstly Orbital have been doing this longer than anyone so they're not only streets ahead of everyone else, they have a list of patents out on it and related componentry as long as your driveway. So it'll be very difficult for anybody to bring anything decent directly injected to the game without their assistance.
Secondly, they're not soft enough to roll over and let the Japanese walk all over them and they've obviously taken a lesson from Mr Kaden at MZ all those years ago and have made sure not to give them the chance to steal it either!
Against that, anything they've been involved with has worked and worked bloody well. I see no reason to doubt that an off-road motorcycle using a DI 2-stroke engine and their know-how would be any different.
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tell me why, if this "technology" exists, why no one is banking on delivering it to the market.
Well firstly Orbital have been doing this longer than anyone so they're not only streets ahead of everyone else, they have a list of patents out on it and related componentry as long as your driveway. So it'll be very difficult for anybody to bring anything decent directly injected to the game without their assistance.
Secondly, they're not soft enough to roll over and let the Japanese walk all over them and they've obviously taken a lesson from Mr Kaden at MZ all those years ago and have made sure not to give them the chance to steal it either!
Against that, anything they've been involved with has worked and worked bloody well. I see no reason to doubt that an off-road motorcycle using a DI 2-stroke engine and their know-how would be any different.
Actually, BRP's E-tec is more advanced than Orbitals engine. E-tec's injectors do all the work while Orbital has an external air pump to assist. The difference is that the E-tec's voice-coil injectors can work at much higher rpm than Orbitals. The Orbital engine is said to be extremely reliable, as is the E-tec. Madscientist i appreciate your input but i've been around 2 strokes for 40 years or so and don;t like being lectured to. The fact is there's a worldwide effort to eradicate 2 strokes because of their emissions, and the eradication has taken hold. You don;t really believe that a sudden awakening to the benefits of good carb tuning is going to reverse things do you??
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Personally,I'm still waiting for BRP to resurrect the can am dirt bike line.They have the technology,skidoo and outboard both.Seems to me it's a pretty short step for them.
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take a look at this company http://www.2si.com/index.htm (http://www.2si.com/index.htm)
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Hey!! It's got fins!! I know someone who is going to love this.... ;D ;D ;D
(http://www.2si.com/images/index.7.gif)
I'm trying to figure out what the extra piston is for, looks like a "super-charger" possibly to compress the fuel air mixture?? I'll have to read the site later.....
Very interesting... thanks for the link.
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Madscientist- I don't think that stupid generally exists as much as you make it seem. I think that 'uneducated' exists more than anything.
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I don't like that design. All that gibberish above the piston just says "four-stroke" to me. Not that my weird little idea doesn't suffer that same problem, but still.
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I don't like that design.
JETZcorp doesn't like this design. But it don't have electronics or a solenoid to control fuel. I'm not really sure how that injection system is supposed to work, could be like mechanical injection. I'll stick to a BRP or Orbital type system.
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It's nice that there's no electronics to deal with, but then, you can also say that about a carbed 4T. What we're looking at here looks, to me at least, to be a big heavy 4T style pig that just happens to fire every other stroke. 50% ain't too horrible, but I don't think it's right for bikes. I could see that having a future in cars, though.
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Hey read through this topic a little while back, just though I'd join and jump in! :D
I'm a road bike fan so my views are more based on I like two strokes but unless they mean certain environmental standards then there is no way they can be licenced with increasingly stricker standards.
So for me I am totally for Direct Injection if it brings back a type of motorcycle which is more powerful per cc and lighter. I figure if they did then tuning firms would invest time in developing such bikes and it would be a win win for everyone involved.
Aparently the issue and reason why DI is not being pushed is that emission standards are still such that they can be met fairly easily with fourstrokes. If the standards get more strict, then it might become more attractive for advanced twostrokes to be developed. 8)
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maybe this article is interesting. 8) http://www.2stroke-tuning.nl/media/artikelen/2takt_ktm.pdf (http://www.2stroke-tuning.nl/media/artikelen/2takt_ktm.pdf)
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Yeah really cool article that!!
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Nothing to do with fuel injection but during the 08 season the 125 KTM also run a kinetic energy recovery system (KERS), so Bartol perfected a system to run on a 125 GP bike which even the mighty budgets in F1 have struggled with.
The man is god like, what a shame we have been deprived of seeing what sort of 500cc GP bike he could have built, maybe we will get some comfort from him being more involved with the off-road side of things from now on.
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Hey read through this topic a little while back, just though I'd join and jump in! :D
I'm a road bike fan so my views are more based on I like two strokes but unless they mean certain environmental standards then there is no way they can be licenced with increasingly stricker standards.
So for me I am totally for Direct Injection if it brings back a type of motorcycle which is more powerful per cc and lighter. I figure if they did then tuning firms would invest time in developing such bikes and it would be a win win for everyone involved.
Aparently the issue and reason why DI is not being pushed is that emission standards are still such that they can be met fairly easily with fourstrokes. If the standards get more strict, then it might become more attractive for advanced twostrokes to be developed. 8)
Hey look at this baby!! The Suter SRT 500 prototype was presented at Milano with the occasion of the 2009 EICMA show. The chassis is similar to that used on the Ilmor X3 and it is part of a real MotoGP bike that weighs 125 kg/ 275.5 lbs and benefits of precisely 200 hp developed by the two-stroke V4 of 500cc.
http://www.topspeed.com/motorcycles/motorcycle-news/suter-srt-500-v4the-gp-two-stroke-motorcycle-for-anyone-to-buy-ar81617.html (http://www.topspeed.com/motorcycles/motorcycle-news/suter-srt-500-v4the-gp-two-stroke-motorcycle-for-anyone-to-buy-ar81617.html)
http://www.suterracing.com/ (http://www.suterracing.com/)
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Suter is simply a hard-core win. If I didn't like the 1972 Kawasaki 750 so much, I'd have one of those bikes at the top of my list.
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Suter is simply a hard-core win. If I didn't like the 1972 Kawasaki 750 so much, I'd have one of those bikes at the top of my list.
I would like to hear that thing scream!
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The folks over at MCN did a great article on DI, which also mention the Suter bike... if you haven't seen it yet, you may want to read this article....
http://twostrokemotocross.com/2009/06/two-strokes-strike-back/ (http://twostrokemotocross.com/2009/06/two-strokes-strike-back/)
As for listening to a 2,000cc two-stroke, you can get your jolly's here!
http://twostrokemotocross.com/2009/06/2000cc-v4-two-stroke-engine/ (http://twostrokemotocross.com/2009/06/2000cc-v4-two-stroke-engine/)
Although it was built for a flying machine!!
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Hey look at this baby!! The Suter SRT 500 prototype was presented at Milano with the occasion of the 2009 EICMA show. The chassis is similar to that used on the Ilmor X3 and it is part of a real MotoGP bike that weighs 125 kg/ 275.5 lbs and benefits of precisely 200 hp developed by the two-stroke V4 of 500cc.
http://www.topspeed.com/motorcycles/motorcycle-news/suter-srt-500-v4the-gp-two-stroke-motorcycle-for-anyone-to-buy-ar81617.html (http://www.topspeed.com/motorcycles/motorcycle-news/suter-srt-500-v4the-gp-two-stroke-motorcycle-for-anyone-to-buy-ar81617.html)
http://www.suterracing.com/ (http://www.suterracing.com/)
Damn now that's what I'm talking about!! Shame I'd never have the cash nor the balls to ride one!! Detune that baby slightly and put lights and a sidestand and you'd have a serious road bike!!
But going on the GP theme, wonder what it would take for a twostroke to beat one of the 800cc MotoGP machines? Technology has come along way and perhaps with traction control, tire technology etc it could be possible for a lighter 500cc twostroke to beat the 800's? When the 500's last raced they had to contend with 1000cc bikes which slowed them on the corners and then out dragged them down the straights. The newer 800's probably have a greater similarity in cornering styles and have 10-20 more horsepower with greater weight.
Put the last generation NSR500 engine in a 2010 developed chassis, something I guess the Suter represents with a good rider and development crew and I'm sure it could raise a few eyebrows! Maybe it might take another 100cc to do so, but Dorna blatently banned twostrokes really sucks! In 2012 MotoGP goes back to 1000cc with 4 cylinder fourstrokes, if they let 700cc or 800cc twostrokes in the mix that would be awesome!!! 8)
p.s. Check this youtube clip for music to ears!!
Kawasaki H2 100HP Denco Cobra (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzaBsGvXcsw#)
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I think the Ossa injects into the crankcase, doesn't it? Besides, I think there's been some talk about some special carb (3-circuit, was it?) that can match the emissions performance of injection without need for a laptop. Because seriously, if something on a carb goes wrong, you can tear it apart and fix it. If some little electrical thing gets fried in the injector, chances are you're gonna be SOL until you can wheel your bike up to someone with a few phD's in circuitry and computers, by which time your weekend will have long ago been ruined. And that's assuming it goes wrong in camp. What if it goes wrong out past the Devil's Tee (the magical intersection at which a bike always breaks down) and you're 20 miles from the truck? With a carb you might have a chance at getting it fixed, but with an injector I suspect (though I'm not 100%) that it would be a bit more difficult.
I think that brake down behind repair 20 Km out can be happening on any dirtbike,old or new,carb or FI.
If that crank lets go,you are stranded and can only hope you are not allone. ;)
All you need then is:
(http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/3159/rrsktmproject2015.jpg) (http://img251.imageshack.us/i/rrsktmproject2015.jpg/)
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Well yes, it's true that anything can break down. However, there are something you can fix with duct tape and a brick, and some things that you can't. There are also some things made up of microscopic bits of metal fashioned into an intricate pattern, and those which are simply carved out of a giant block of metal. One time, the 120 stopped running about 30 miles from camp, and refused to run for more than 15 seconds at a time. We fixed the problem with a paper-clip.
And that H2 triple seems to have a somewhat discomforting idle (feels like it's going to die any second) but DAMN does it sound nice on the pipe!
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And that H2 triple seems to have a somewhat discomforting idle (feels like it's going to die any second) but DAMN does it sound nice on the pipe!
Strangely enough I was going to comment that for me the video was spoiled by the poor tick over and low rpm throttle response.
But I though it would just make me sound like a grumpy old kill-joy!
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That's what I'm here for. ;-)
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And that H2 triple seems to have a somewhat discomforting idle (feels like it's going to die any second) but DAMN does it sound nice on the pipe!
Strangely enough I was going to comment that for me the video was spoiled by the poor tick over and low rpm throttle response.
But I though it would just make me sound like a grumpy old kill-joy!
i have a '74 H2 (green) and a '75 H2 (purple) and yes the low speed operation is nothing to write home about. it's just a piston port engine and like most H2's (like the one in the video) the stock air snorkle that connects the air box to the back of the carbs has been thrown away for "better performance". this makes the bike run even worse at low speed and it has horriffic intake noise with those pod filters. my '75 still had the stock airbox on it when i bought it 16 years ago but the '74 didn't. i remember when i ordered the snorkle for the '74 it was the last one available from Kawasaki HQ in Irvine, at least that's what the guy at headquaters said. that was back in 1994.
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At least Kawasaki didn't loose the plot completely and fit it with CV carbs as Suzuki did with the GT 750.
Had one of them in last year to set up, nightmare!
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Hello Everyone,
I can only speak for myself here, but I don't want a direct injection 2 stroke UNLESS it's going to make something available to us that we don't already have.
If it means NEW RD350's, RZ350's, S2's, S3's, H1's, H2's, Suzuki GT's instead of GS's and things like that, then I'm probably into it, until I have the opportunity to buy one of the originals. If all we'd be getting out of it is more homogenized versions of what we have already, then forget it. I've heard that D.I. makes a 2 stroke run a little more like a 4 stoke... That's all I have to hear to say "I'll Pass.." for the time being.
Because I love the way all my current bikes run right now, just the way they are... What more could D.I. bring to a YZ250 that it doesn't already have?
Would it produce better throttle response? Not likely, as the throttle response is already just short of telepathic.
Would it make the bike easier to start? Puh-Leeeeze.....
Would it be any easier to maintain? I don't guess so...
Would it make the bike lighter? I don't know, is one of those systems really lighter than the carb that's already on there, you think?
One of the most enjoyable aspects of riding a motorcycle is the act of metering the fuel mixture flow into the engine. A carburetor is a fairly simple device that makes this a very immediate, in your face experience. The rider has un moderated control of his machine. He can make a mess of everything or that thing can sing motown down, it's all up to the guy pulling on the throttle cable.
I just don't want to see another step in the direction of BORING, that's all. 2 strokes are the most exciting motorcycles to experience, by far, no doubt about it. Wallowing WAY behind that excitement is the rather bland and predictable experience of riding 4 stroke motorcycles. Yes, you still get down the track/trail/road on your mount, but they're not going to start rewriting the menu at Spark's any time soon, just because you can survive on baby food. Electric motorcycles aren't quite worth a mention in my opinion except maybe to demonstrate just exactly HOW boring and emasculated the experience of motorcycling can be made, for people who go to hell....
When a significant addition to the complexity of a machine is made, the gains should be relative in value. If not they're not worth the added complexity in my opinion. I believe that in the case of the 4 stroke bikes, EFI was worth checking out because there were frustrating problems to be overcome with regard to the way the bikes ran. But even in that case, there have been losses to go along with the gains. They have engines with neater manners, but riders keep saying they lack the raw power of the carbureted bikes. When the hype settles, I'm not sure EFI is really exciting news unless you're a service department, or a guy who rides in Florida at the beginning of every week, then Pike's Peak at the end of every week. The systems are dependable but should there be a failure, are you going to fix it yourself? How were bikes of your machine's type working before EFI? Not very well? Then it's only right to go for it! If your bike was working EXTREMELY well with a carb, then there's a chance you'll end up as a fist prize sucker if you let someone replace a slide, needle, and a small assortment of ingeniously arranged orifices with a fuel injection system.
My point is that if I was bummed out because 1/2 the time when I went to throttle my bike above idle, it flamed out like a carbureted 4 stroke does sometimes, or if it liked to occasionally stall in a corner and feel like it just dropped anchor as the rear wheel locked and dragged, maybe I'd be looking for an alternative fueling system... But, since I can't even remember the last time the fueling system on ANY 2 stroke has ever let me down, I'm just not looking. No thanks, I'll just keep my Mentos box of 70 cent brass jets and I'm fine.
REGARDING THE ENVIRONMENTAL EFFECTS...
I don't feel obligated to fret over the exhaust emissions of relatively tiny little dirt bikes, or any other bikes for that matter. Never have, never will. At displacements between 1/8 and 1/2 liter, I really don't think our bikes would be Mother Nature's biggest worry even if we each triple jumped a set of beached whales and landed on a rainforest telethon while carrying a sack of seal clubs, pipelines, and drilling rigs up north for hunting season. I've heard the chorus line of Kashi Gobblers, and Transworld KoolAid Kross California types singing about "Dirty", or "Smokey" 2 stroke engines, but I think we 2 stroke riders already do a lot to help our bikes run relatively clean.
Since our bikes use tuned exhaust and power valves (Except on those old Maicos and TS's) in conjunction with the intake to charge the cylinder from both upstream and downstream, some of the power band is quite efficient and unburned fuel loss is minimal. That's the part of the power band every rider seeks out and spends most of their time with, the sweet spot where the bike is most responsive. The inefficient part of the power band is the part that feels less responsive to the rider because the cylinder charge is less than ideal and riders can feel the lost potential, so we don't spend much time there.
Emissions tests can be run with all different types of test parameters, with a vast spectrum of results possible from the same engine. All engines have rpm ranges of peak efficiency for both power output and fuel usage/emissions. There are very large differences in efficiency, regarding both power output and fuel usage/emissions as a 2 stroke engine goes through it's rpm range, but that's a big part of why we love them. This also means you can test one and get either a very bad emissions sample, or a very good one, and all you have to do is change the rpm, engine load, or throttle position to get almost whatever result you're looking for.
I tune rich on purpose to keep engine temps down, my engines last for ever, and the smoke is just fine with me.
Thanks,
Jim
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I'm not going to reply to all of this, simply because I don't have time, and I agree with most of it anyway.
At displacements between 1/8 and 1/2 liter, I really don't think our bikes would be Mother Nature's biggest worry even if we each triple jumped a set of beached whales and landed on a rainforest telethon while carrying a sack of seal clubs, pipelines, and drilling rigs up north for hunting season.
When I read this, I threw my head back, writhed with laughter, and gave a round of applause (all silently because my parents are sleeping.) That said, I wonder if that's really true. Though the engines are small, I've read sources saying they're 50x worse than a typical car. I'm not sure if that number is really based on hard data, but if it is, it's very alarming indeed. A bullet may be much smaller than a bean-bag chair, but I know which one I'd rather be hit with.
Also, I think a lot of the feel to the bike is still going to be up to the manufacturer. A DI bike will have the potential to ride rather four-stroke-like, if you're having the majority of your combustion air staying in the cylinder staying there. However, there's nothing saying that it couldn't be set up in such a way to give you the peaky powerband. The goal of DI is to separate the air charge from the fuel charge. If the air charge is treated just the way it is now, you could still lose some out the exhaust and you'll be getting changing power delivery depending on RPM and throttle (remember that throttle meters air, too). DI makes it so that the effects of changing compression with RPM give you that good old classic feel, while not losing fuel out the exhaust, only air. The short version: DI lets you separate the air- and fuel-charge so that you don't have to waste gas and create excess emissions.
There are still the problems of maintenance - it's very worrying to me to have complex, non-mechanical things that require skilled shop technicians to work on (if indeed that will be necessary.) While I'm optimistic about injection, I am more optimistic about the Boyesen design.
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Yeah interesting read there, for sure it's from an offroad point of view which to me as long as there are no regulations on emissions for offroad twostroke (or onroad racers) then DI is a unnecessary technology.....of course if in the end the system does develop into a very capable system.
However where I think if does do well is on road bikes where if it's not fourstroke, then you can't make them. Even a slightly sanitised DI two stroke is going to be better than a fourstroke and that's before the tuning guys get a chance to play.
Also one little point missing.........who ever said the bike had to be kept as a DI bike in the first place?! ;D It's the twostroke engine we're after one that's been registered for the road, as long as there's no one checking it's been played with who's to know!! :P
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That's a good point. You're technically not supposed to run on the street with MX tires, but my dad runs his otherwise street-legal '78 Husky 360WR on the roads and the cops don't bother him about it. They also aren't aware that the speedometer isn't hooked to anything, but they don't need to know that.
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Thought i'd add some thoughts to Jim's posts. My responses are in bold
Hello Everyone,
I can only speak for myself here, but I don't want a direct injection 2 stroke UNLESS it's going to make something available to us that we don't already have. We don't have any road-going 2 stroke street bikes with greater than mid-80's technology. Most with mid-70's.
If it means NEW RD350's, RZ350's, S2's, S3's, H1's, H2's, Suzuki GT's instead of GS's and things like that, then I'm probably into it, until I have the opportunity to buy one of the originals. If all we'd be getting out of it is more homogenized versions of what we have already, then forget it. I've heard that D.I. makes a 2 stroke run a little more like a 4 stoke... That's all I have to hear to say "I'll Pass.." for the time being. Please go to youtube and type in Ski-doo 600 e-tec. Except for a steady idle, no smoke, low emissions and easy on gas, she's ALL 2 stroke. The screamer you know and love.
Because I love the way all my current bikes run right now, just the way they are... What more could D.I. bring to a YZ250 that it doesn't already have? A smaller gas tank and a programmable power curve for starters
Would it produce better throttle response? Not likely, as the throttle response is already just short of telepathic. It absolutely would. The DI would fill in any and all gaps of the power curve. Even things you wouldn't feel seat-of-the-pants
Would it make the bike easier to start? Puh-Leeeeze..... Again, go to youtube. There's a clip of two ski-doo e-tecs that were in cold storage for 2 months. They start right up. immediately. Even a YZ250 would take a few kicks after sitting all winter.
Would it be any easier to maintain? I don't guess so... Fair enough, but this technology is about 90 years younger than the old. When roadracing changed to all 2 strokes in the 60's and 70's tuners complained about changing pistons and rings all the time.
Would it make the bike lighter? I don't know, is one of those systems really lighter than the carb that's already on there, you think? Subtract the weight of a gallon of gas and replacement it with some electronic components. I bet it's a wash.
One of the most enjoyable aspects of riding a motorcycle is the act of metering the fuel mixture flow into the engine. A carburetor is a fairly simple device that makes this a very immediate, in your face experience. The rider has un moderated control of his machine. He can make a mess of everything or that thing can sing motown down, it's all up to the guy pulling on the throttle cable. A throttle is a throttle. Direct injection only changes what happens when the rider gives the pistons some fuel to work with. The rider would still be 100% in control.
I just don't want to see another step in the direction of BORING, that's all. 2 strokes are the most exciting motorcycles to experience, by far, no doubt about it. Wallowing WAY behind that excitement is the rather bland and predictable experience of riding 4 stroke motorcycles. Yes, you still get down the track/trail/road on your mount, but they're not going to start rewriting the menu at Spark's any time soon, just because you can survive on baby food. Electric motorcycles aren't quite worth a mention in my opinion except maybe to demonstrate just exactly HOW boring and emasculated the experience of motorcycling can be made, for people who go to hell....
When a significant addition to the complexity of a machine is made, the gains should be relative in value. If not they're not worth the added complexity in my opinion. I believe that in the case of the 4 stroke bikes, EFI was worth checking out because there were frustrating problems to be overcome with regard to the way the bikes ran. But even in that case, there have been losses to go along with the gains. They have engines with neater manners, but riders keep saying they lack the raw power of the carbureted bikes. When the hype settles, I'm not sure EFI is really exciting news unless you're a service department, or a guy who rides in Florida at the beginning of every week, then Pike's Peak at the end of every week. The systems are dependable but should there be a failure, are you going to fix it yourself? How were bikes of your machine's type working before EFI? Not very well? Then it's only right to go for it! If your bike was working EXTREMELY well with a carb, then there's a chance you'll end up as a fist prize sucker if you let someone replace a slide, needle, and a small assortment of ingeniously arranged orifices with a fuel injection system.
My point is that if I was bummed out because 1/2 the time when I went to throttle my bike above idle, it flamed out like a carbureted 4 stroke does sometimes, or if it liked to occasionally stall in a corner and feel like it just dropped anchor as the rear wheel locked and dragged, maybe I'd be looking for an alternative fueling system... But, since I can't even remember the last time the fueling system on ANY 2 stroke has ever let me down, I'm just not looking. No thanks, I'll just keep my Mentos box of 70 cent brass jets and I'm fine.
REGARDING THE ENVIRONMENTAL EFFECTS...
I don't feel obligated to fret over the exhaust emissions of relatively tiny little dirt bikes, or any other bikes for that matter. Never have, never will. At displacements between 1/8 and 1/2 liter, I really don't think our bikes would be Mother Nature's biggest worry even if we each triple jumped a set of beached whales and landed on a rainforest telethon while carrying a sack of seal clubs, pipelines, and drilling rigs up north for hunting season. I've heard the chorus line of Kashi Gobblers, and Transworld KoolAid Kross California types singing about "Dirty", or "Smokey" 2 stroke engines, but I think we 2 stroke riders already do a lot to help our bikes run relatively clean.
Since our bikes use tuned exhaust and power valves (Except on those old Maicos and TS's) in conjunction with the intake to charge the cylinder from both upstream and downstream, some of the power band is quite efficient and unburned fuel loss is minimal. That's the part of the power band every rider seeks out and spends most of their time with, the sweet spot where the bike is most responsive. The inefficient part of the power band is the part that feels less responsive to the rider because the cylinder charge is less than ideal and riders can feel the lost potential, so we don't spend much time there.
Emissions tests can be run with all different types of test parameters, with a vast spectrum of results possible from the same engine. All engines have rpm ranges of peak efficiency for both power output and fuel usage/emissions. There are very large differences in efficiency, regarding both power output and fuel usage/emissions as a 2 stroke engine goes through it's rpm range, but that's a big part of why we love them. This also means you can test one and get either a very bad emissions sample, or a very good one, and all you have to do is change the rpm, engine load, or throttle position to get almost whatever result you're looking for.
I tune rich on purpose to keep engine temps down, my engines last for ever, and the smoke is just fine with me.
Thanks,
Jim
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Hey Chris I find your responses totally in sync with my thoughts there. Change is constant and two strokes of the 70's were very different than of the 90's. Powerbands became wider and smoother as designers worked on increasing rideability.
I'm impressed with those E-tec engines myself, my brother had an outboard with the setup. Fuel injection is pretty impressive stuff, my brothers bike (wreck) was sat up for well over a year outside in the weather. I wanted to borrow some parts off it and thought to kick it over. So I plugged up a battery and it seriously started and ran first time!! :o
I think with the injection system being closed loop and sealed it prevents the lighter components of the fuel from evaporating.
Personally I don't have an issue with being nice to the environment if we can, I have friends who still choose to race with leaded fuel and I think that's pretty aweful really.
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I was watching NASCAR Race Hub on speed last night, and they were talking about Nascar going to fuel injection. I thought they would keep the carbs for another century. If they go FI, I don't see the carb lasting too long because everything will be FI . But I believe the weekly series are keeping carbs for now.
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We all want something different. What I want is an updated 2-stroke with the latest suspension and frame geometry for today's tracks. I want R&D money poured in to my bike, not BNG. Yesteryears motocross bikes become obsolete. If I must accept a new technology that complicates things then I must, that doesn't mean I prefer it only that it is the lesser of the two evils (complexity or obsolescence).
Hello Everyone,
I can only speak for myself here, but I don't want a direct injection 2 stroke UNLESS it's going to make something available to us that we don't already have.
If it means NEW RD350's, RZ350's, S2's, S3's, H1's, H2's, Suzuki GT's instead of GS's and things like that, then I'm probably into it, until I have the opportunity to buy one of the originals. If all we'd be getting out of it is more homogenized versions of what we have already, then forget it. I've heard that D.I. makes a 2 stroke run a little more like a 4 stoke... That's all I have to hear to say "I'll Pass.." for the time being.
Because I love the way all my current bikes run right now, just the way they are... What more could D.I. bring to a YZ250 that it doesn't already have?
Would it produce better throttle response? Not likely, as the throttle response is already just short of telepathic.
Would it make the bike easier to start? Puh-Leeeeze.....
Would it be any easier to maintain? I don't guess so...
Would it make the bike lighter? I don't know, is one of those systems really lighter than the carb that's already on there, you think?
One of the most enjoyable aspects of riding a motorcycle is the act of metering the fuel mixture flow into the engine. A carburetor is a fairly simple device that makes this a very immediate, in your face experience. The rider has un moderated control of his machine. He can make a mess of everything or that thing can sing motown down, it's all up to the guy pulling on the throttle cable.
I just don't want to see another step in the direction of BORING, that's all. 2 strokes are the most exciting motorcycles to experience, by far, no doubt about it. Wallowing WAY behind that excitement is the rather bland and predictable experience of riding 4 stroke motorcycles. Yes, you still get down the track/trail/road on your mount, but they're not going to start rewriting the menu at Spark's any time soon, just because you can survive on baby food. Electric motorcycles aren't quite worth a mention in my opinion except maybe to demonstrate just exactly HOW boring and emasculated the experience of motorcycling can be made, for people who go to hell....
When a significant addition to the complexity of a machine is made, the gains should be relative in value. If not they're not worth the added complexity in my opinion. I believe that in the case of the 4 stroke bikes, EFI was worth checking out because there were frustrating problems to be overcome with regard to the way the bikes ran. But even in that case, there have been losses to go along with the gains. They have engines with neater manners, but riders keep saying they lack the raw power of the carbureted bikes. When the hype settles, I'm not sure EFI is really exciting news unless you're a service department, or a guy who rides in Florida at the beginning of every week, then Pike's Peak at the end of every week. The systems are dependable but should there be a failure, are you going to fix it yourself? How were bikes of your machine's type working before EFI? Not very well? Then it's only right to go for it! If your bike was working EXTREMELY well with a carb, then there's a chance you'll end up as a fist prize sucker if you let someone replace a slide, needle, and a small assortment of ingeniously arranged orifices with a fuel injection system.
My point is that if I was bummed out because 1/2 the time when I went to throttle my bike above idle, it flamed out like a carbureted 4 stroke does sometimes, or if it liked to occasionally stall in a corner and feel like it just dropped anchor as the rear wheel locked and dragged, maybe I'd be looking for an alternative fueling system... But, since I can't even remember the last time the fueling system on ANY 2 stroke has ever let me down, I'm just not looking. No thanks, I'll just keep my Mentos box of 70 cent brass jets and I'm fine.
REGARDING THE ENVIRONMENTAL EFFECTS...
I don't feel obligated to fret over the exhaust emissions of relatively tiny little dirt bikes, or any other bikes for that matter. Never have, never will. At displacements between 1/8 and 1/2 liter, I really don't think our bikes would be Mother Nature's biggest worry even if we each triple jumped a set of beached whales and landed on a rainforest telethon while carrying a sack of seal clubs, pipelines, and drilling rigs up north for hunting season. I've heard the chorus line of Kashi Gobblers, and Transworld KoolAid Kross California types singing about "Dirty", or "Smokey" 2 stroke engines, but I think we 2 stroke riders already do a lot to help our bikes run relatively clean.
Since our bikes use tuned exhaust and power valves (Except on those old Maicos and TS's) in conjunction with the intake to charge the cylinder from both upstream and downstream, some of the power band is quite efficient and unburned fuel loss is minimal. That's the part of the power band every rider seeks out and spends most of their time with, the sweet spot where the bike is most responsive. The inefficient part of the power band is the part that feels less responsive to the rider because the cylinder charge is less than ideal and riders can feel the lost potential, so we don't spend much time there.
Emissions tests can be run with all different types of test parameters, with a vast spectrum of results possible from the same engine. All engines have rpm ranges of peak efficiency for both power output and fuel usage/emissions. There are very large differences in efficiency, regarding both power output and fuel usage/emissions as a 2 stroke engine goes through it's rpm range, but that's a big part of why we love them. This also means you can test one and get either a very bad emissions sample, or a very good one, and all you have to do is change the rpm, engine load, or throttle position to get almost whatever result you're looking for.
I tune rich on purpose to keep engine temps down, my engines last for ever, and the smoke is just fine with me.
Thanks,
Jim