Two Stroke Motocross
Two Stroke Motocross Forum => General Two Stroke Talk => Topic started by: 2smoker on August 07, 2010, 03:32:29 PM
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Yeah! I know it is a 4 stroke but I love the look of it and some innovation like the countershaft sprocket aligned with the swingarm pivot and the slick body panels!!! It looks really really good for an Husky!!!
:o
http://www.motocrossactionmag.com/Main/News/FIRST-LOOK-2011-HUSQVARNA-TC449-MOTOCROSS-BIKE-PHO-7215.aspx (http://www.motocrossactionmag.com/Main/News/FIRST-LOOK-2011-HUSQVARNA-TC449-MOTOCROSS-BIKE-PHO-7215.aspx)
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The countershaft thing is from the BMW dirt bike.I like the Husky 2t's,especially the room between the tank and engine.You could almost squeeze through it.Fit and finish wasn't the best so it will be interesting to see what BMW does with it.
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The side panels and rear number plates are all one piece.
What number plate? ???
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ehh i dont like it very much. I LOVE the 2009 2010 Husky r125
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I wonder what ever happened to this? EDIT: I just realized it's the same bike, just with different color.
http://twostrokemotocross.com/forum/index.php?topic=568.0 (http://twostrokemotocross.com/forum/index.php?topic=568.0)
Anyway, I like how they put the clutch on the crankshaft. From what I hear that forces the clutch to turn at a higher speed but, in trade, it has much less torque to overcome because it's not multiplied by the primary gears (or chain :D). This means that the clutch can be made smaller, and therefore lighter. Lighter is good.
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B a bitch to change the front sprocket, no more 60 sec circlip job.
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Good point evo. I think factories are getting too complicated on dirt bikes. I am all for modern equipment, but in my opinion that countershaft design, and things like fuel injection, just make the bikes too complicated for most people to work on.
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True about the countershaft sprocket, but...
you could run the chain with almost no slack, so no more chain slapping noise, and I think your sprockets/chain would last longer.
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It looks good from the side panels down. Not to disagree with 2smoker, but dear Lord, have we forgotten what a motorcycle looks like? Maybe it's just my taste, but what happened to a regular looking fender? Husqvarna's bike needed an update, yes, but not something out of a futuristic "b" movie props grab bag.
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I agree about the plastic, the 2011 KTM's are not a whole lot better. I don't see how they expect you to put numbers on these bikes for scoring purposes.
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I've always liked Husqvarnas' but they're really getting almost too futuristic looking! I do however like the countershaft sprocket aligned with the swingarm for the benefits of that design.
As far as the 2011 KTM's I think they still look decent enough & I would like to buy a 2011 300xc because it finally has a six speed gearbox!! :D
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Counter shaft sprocket aligned with the swingarm is great, until you have to change the front sprocket :)
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Or anything else! I imagine a transmission job would also be a whore with so much stuff all intertwined with itself. It's nice to have the countershaft there, but honestly, having it a few centimeters off isn't going to hurt anything, and you'll see big dividends in maintainability.
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Funny... to me the bike sort of looks like a mid-1970's Bultaco!! Remember those didn't have number plates either, you had to bolt them on.
Personally I like the idea of the countershaft sprocket lined up with the swingarm pivot. This is the ideal.
Since I can't see exactly how they have all the parts mounted to the bike, it's hard to tell how easy or difficult it would be to change the sprocket. But with the sprocket in line with the swing arm pivot you don't have to concern yourself with chain tension. Also power delivery will not affect the rear suspension so much (with the sprocket mounted forward of the pivot the tendency is to squat the rear end.
Best of all the chain and sprockets combination will last much longer.
What's not to like?? ??? ???
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Not to toot my own horn but I've always (until BMW did it.) wondered why the countershaft sprocket has never been aligned with the swingarm much sooner because it does make alot of sense for rear suspension reasons as well as preventing the chain from slapping the swingarm.
I'm sure it will be a little bit of a pain in the arse to change the countershaft sprocket however I still think that design has great benefits.... ;D
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Dang you guys and your logic, I may be swayed to the idea now. I don't like when someone convinces me to change my mind... ;D ;D
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I still don't think it's worth it. I can't say for sure until I've seen really how they did it, but I would imagine that this will make it necessary to pull the engine for jobs you may not otherwise have to, and then when you do have to pull it, there'll be more bullshit to deal with. And the last thing you need when working on a bike is bullshit. As long as there's not a gigantic space between the sprocket and swingarm pivot (if you ever get a chance to look at where a '74 Maico sprocket is, you'll see how bad it used to be!) I can't imagine that it's too big of a deal. Modern bikes (by which I mean anything made after 1978) have it so close that the tension problem can really be handled by whatever system is already in place to keep the chain from moving laterally. I agree that there will be some slight benefits, but in my personal opinion, it wouldn't be worth the drawbacks.
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If it's the same as the bmw, the swingarm needs to be pulled back to access the front sprocket.
Although it looks like it, the sprocket doesn't share a common pivot with the swingarm, the arm doesn't have a swingarm bolt that we are used too, instead it mounts independently on either side of the frame, with the engine cases extending back into the space between the arm mounts where the traditional bolt runs through.
Clear as mud ????
In the famous words of Rondo Talbot....."You should have known"
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I like it. But some people are never happy , are they ? ;)
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I don't know what people you're talking about - I love my Husky. :D
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The way some think of new technology.... my wonder is how you can use that "evil" box in front of you, reading propaganda made of pixels!! :o :o :P :P
Or said another way... how can you hate something you haven't seen in person or given a try?
Just like the old Life cereal commercial says....
Life Cereal with Mikey (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34wJt3pRY0w#)
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Are you an English teacher or something? Because it sounds to me like you're doing a hell of a lot of reading between the lines. Just because I don't automatically equate every new feature on a bike with instant superiority, that somehow makes me closed-minded? Is it now so thoroughly out out vogue to care about serviceability? And how in the hell did this even turn into an old vs new conversation anyway?
Hell, it wasn't so long ago that I myself was thinking of ways to put the swingarm pivot point and countershaft sprocket on the same axis. I thought it would be a good idea, for all the reasons that have been pointed out here. But then I thought to myself, "Self, how in the hell would you be able to work on this thing? And just how much benefit would the rider be getting for that sacrifice?" On those grounds, I decided that it was fine the way it is, unless someone can come up with a way to make this happen without making the bike too complicated to work on. If Husqvarna have managed to do that here, then I applaud them on their ingenuity in managing to make things genuinely better. However, I am skeptical that the above has really happened. The last thing I'm going to do is buy one of these new four-strokes, run it until the front sprocket looks like a saw blade, and then start giving preliminary thoughts on whether I like this new development. If you apply that standard on me for disapproving of it, then go ahead and apply it to everyone who likes it, and make them buy the bike before giving their opinion. And in this spirit, I'm going to announce that I don't think Antarctica is a cold place. It might be, but I haven't frozen to death there yet. I've heard stories of people freezing to death there, and I've read plenty about the climate and the average temperatures, and compared that with my own experience, but we all know that "logic" nonsense doesn't count for anything.
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Relax Jetz.... where in my reply did I say anything directly about you??
And to answer the rest of your reply I will quote myself from earlier.....
Personally I like the idea of the countershaft sprocket lined up with the swingarm pivot. This is the ideal.
Since I can't see exactly how they have all the parts mounted to the bike, it's hard to tell how easy or difficult it would be to change the sprocket.
In my last post all I was asking is how so many could say bad things about anything without ever having seen or tried the new stuff.
If anything you are ready something too deeply into the posts....
Relax dude....
This is supposed to be fun...
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Jetz,someone piss in your wheaties this morning? :-*
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And how in the hell did this even turn into an old vs new conversation anyway?
My guess is because in every one of your posts you either make a comparison to Maico or one of your old bikes... ;D :P
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All in reference to my light hearted remark about the maintaince of changing the front sprocket?
Overall, I think it is a good thing and how often do you change the front sprocket? It may or may not be harder but typically bouncing on the chain causes you to always move your rear wheel and align it, so if this causes you to do that less often, then it may ease maintaince and prolong chain life. Who knows.
My only true remark is someone mentioned that like BMW, the swingarm bolt doesn't go through the motor. I don't know whether it does or doesn't, I thought the motor had holes on both sides in the picutre but I dont have a schematic. However, I will say that if it doesn't then you're putting stress on two short bolts on both sides of the frame. BMW is a road bike and isn't used for any jumps. I don't know, maybe it holds up fine anyway.
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BMW is a road bike and isn't used for any jumps.
Not this BMW:
http://www.bmwdirtbike.com/ (http://www.bmwdirtbike.com/)
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Ya, I don't follow BMW, so I am corrected :)
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The pursuit of this sprocket location is hardly new.If I remember correctly Horst Leitner among others experimented with it,as well as using a second one and a jackshaft to accomplish the same thing.The chain tension is certainly a side benefit but the biggest gain by gearing a bike this way is in the effect on the rear suspension-or rather-the lack of effect of drive load variations on the action of the rear suspension.
As for Antarctica Jetz;it may be cold now,but it was much better 40 years ago. :D
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If you had an outer drive shaft and you had an inner drive shaft you could perhaps unbolt something from the opposite side of the engine to pull the drive shaft back and pull the sprocket out. Then you drop a new sprocket in, push the inner drive shaft into it and it locks into the swing arm and just bolt it on from the opposite side. This way the drive shaft itself doesn't move just an inner or outer drive shaft piece.
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There is a good article on the too tech racing sight about the chains effect on suspension.
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There is a good article on the too tech racing sight about the chains effect on suspension.
You got a linky thingy so I can read this??
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Oops,I was reviewing the posts on this and noticed maicoman already mentioned the suspension effect :-[Oh well.
As for changing it,if all you have to do is take off the swingarm,I don't think that's beyond the mechanical reach of most.For me,I've never had to change the front more than once a year and I grease the swingarm once a year anyway soooooo.....not a big deal imo.On the other hand,for the average rider,I have my doubts we'd notice much difference but if there was a gain to be had-for minimal pain,I'd buy in.
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What I'm more concerned about is pulling the engine from the bike to do other things. It seems to me that with the engine and swingarm all lovey-dovey and close like this it'll make that job even more of a pain than it already is. But like I said, if they've engineered around that and kept it relatively simple so you don't have to disassemble the entire solar system, I don't really see any reason to be against it.
Although it's much less consequential, I am much more horrified by the plastics they've used. You can't really see it in these pictures but the rear fender looks like it was made of glass and then run over by a truck, then they got a simpleton from the village to re-construct it with wire and a glue-stick. It's all kinds of messed up, at least if it's the same as it was when I posted about the "stealth bike."
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Linky thingy for Johnny. :D http://www.tootechracing.com/Engine%20torque%20-%20Suspension.htm (http://www.tootechracing.com/Engine%20torque%20-%20Suspension.htm)
Explains what chain tension actually does to suspension.Even some ofg the experts might be surprised. ;)
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That bike is hidious looking.........nuff said
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Linky thingy for Johnny. :D http://www.tootechracing.com/Engine%20torque%20-%20Suspension.htm (http://www.tootechracing.com/Engine%20torque%20-%20Suspension.htm)
Explains what chain tension actually does to suspension.Even some ofg the experts might be surprised. ;)
Thanks for the linky thingy.... interesting article. I am now confused at a much higher level! :o :o
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Linky thingy for Johnny. :D http://www.tootechracing.com/Engine%20torque%20-%20Suspension.htm (http://www.tootechracing.com/Engine%20torque%20-%20Suspension.htm)
Explains what chain tension actually does to suspension.Even some ofg the experts might be surprised. ;)
Very interesting! Reminded me far too much of my college physics classes though, LOL.
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I think that most people believe that the rear end squat is from the chain tension.The squat is from weight transfer.The chain tension is actually pulling the swingarm and thus the rear wheel down towards the ground.This is how i understand it anyway. :)
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I always thought rear-end squat was from torque. The rear wheel tries to spin clockwise, and the bike reacts by trying to spin counterclockwise, putting leverage on the rear-end, and thus forcing it down. Perhaps that's what's meant by "weight transfer?"
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I've always said the beauty of the 2-stroke is it's simplicity and I still believe that however in the case of the Husqvarnas countershaft sprocket aligned with the swingarm pivot and from what I've read that design should give the Husky better traction and alot less wear & tear on the frame & suspension.I'm not so sure if it would be all that great on a motocross or supercross only bike but I do think it would have good benefits on any offroad or enduro bike and I would'nt mind if a company like Husqvarna or Husaberg would test that design on a 2-stroke offroad/enduro bike especially for the benefit of better traction.
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If you read the article you will notice that he said to brace the front wheel against a wall and let the clutch out and apply throttle and the back of the bike will rise pushing the swingarm down and extending the shock.Click on the link it is in the article.
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If you read the article you will notice that he said to brace the front wheel against a wall and let the clutch out and apply throttle and the back of the bike will rise pushing the swingarm down and extending the shock.Click on the link it is in the article.
offroader... while I have seen this phenomenon happen in person, I'm not so sure that the same thing happens on a track (or the woods) when you don't have the front wheel against an immovable object.
But hey.... that's just me....
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I kind of thought that too. It seems to me that when you have the front wheel pushed against something, then you've got the front wheel itself pushing rearward on the bike (like when you pull the front brake.) Because the forks are angled, this is going to cause the bike to push down in the front (and thus want to raise in the rear) because of component vectors and shit. During the Neolithic Era (eg, when On Any Sunday was made) they had front suspensions that would actually raise up when you pulled the front brake, but these went out of fashion very early. My suspicion is that they caused the front wheel to have less grip when braking, but I've never ridden a bike with that setup so I'm not sure on that.
All that aside, if the engineers say chain tension puts downward force on the rear wheel I guess I have to believe it, but I'm not going to accept the "put the front wheel against a tree" thought experiment as evidence, because of the other factors at work.
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I know what you are saying as a friend of mine and myself have talked about this before.Maybe we can get Rick from tootech to do an article for tsm or come on the forum and clear up our questions?
He does mention about the amp link needing a stiffer rate spring when installing one.wonder if the new Husky is the same way?I do like some of theadvantages of the cs pivot myself.Also heard the the husky 2t's will have this chassis design in the future.
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I know what you are saying as a friend of mine and myself have talked about this before.Maybe we can get Rick from tootech to do an article for tsm or come on the forum and clear up our questions?
Sure!!!
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That would be cool! ;D
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He does mention about the amp link needing a stiffer rate spring when installing one.wonder if the new Husky is the same way?I do like some of theadvantages of the cs pivot myself.Also heard the the husky 2t's will have this chassis design in the future.
[/quote] I would love it if Husqvarna used this design on one of their 250/300 2-strokes....!!!.. ;D