Two Stroke Motocross
Two Stroke Motocross Forum => General Two Stroke Talk => Topic started by: opfermanmotors on June 11, 2010, 01:25:32 PM
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The question is simple but let me explain. The 1981 Maico 490 is hailed as the best MX bike ever and to this day other bikes are measured against it and it in itself has gone into legend. However, do you think any modern bike being produced could ever raise that level of excitement again?
I.E. in 20 years from now would anyone belike OMG, I WANT A 2010 YZ450F! I want that year only it was the best year, no other bike can beat it! Yamaha sold more 2010 YZ450F that year than Star Bucks sold cups of Coffee!! A YZ450F 2010 in 2030 sells for $50k! You get the picture, can even be a 2 stroke, I'm just using the YZF450F because Yamaha is making such a big deal about it being even more retarded than before.
Anyhow, what are your thoughts, think a manufacturer will ever produce a bike with such lure as the 1981 Maico 490 or are they all just equal cups of coffee these days and forever more.
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I doubt that will happen. The 81 is the most copied of any bike. Honda bought a lot of factory inventories in the early to mid 80's, I heard from a reliable source that some of Maico's inventory went, along with Bultaco and Montesa, to one or more of the big 4. Ever wonder why Honda's started handling more like Maico's in the early 80's? I had 84 and 89 CR 250's, measuring all points like footpeg, axle, crank center, ect, all measuring points were very close to my 81 Maico.
Also, they no longer name any motorcycles after the rider as a replica, like AW, Pomeroy, VR, Mikkola, ect. There was a certain 'class' with owning one of those. My 400 AW is still so much fun to ride, and that nice smooth power! Aside from jumping, they still handle as well as anything. I know, most of the tracks now are just one jump after another, and that's why most tracks nowadays just plain suck.
My answer would be No, I doubt there is a bike made in the last 25 years that will be reffered to as a classic. The new 4T's especially, most of those will be just melted down for future beer cans.
Paul
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It's simple,the 1981 Maico was designed and built by madmen. Let me explain. The Engineer who oversaw the production of the 1955 Mercedes Benz 300SL (Gullwing) was also a successful racecar driver who was still winning in his late 60's. Ettore Bugatti was an impassioned industrial designer and was quite literally insane. Need I mention Mr.Ferrari?
If you put your heart and soul into something sometimes the outcome is truly magical. I think if you are on the same "wavelenght" as the designers sometimes you can tune into these passions and in the offroad world few motorcycles demonstrate this better then the MC490.
In the recent British Two Stroke Nationals there is a photo of an 81 490 about to blow by a Service Honda.29 years old and Maico is still delivering knock out punches.
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You forgot Colin Chapman. Lotus
He had a briliant mind but was not a very good engineer.
He would draw designs on napkins and then tell his engineers to make it work.
He was responsible for most new F1 designs in the 60's & 70's
Monocoque chassis / ground effect car.
Another was John Britten.
He put his brilliant design into reallity. ;D
Another mad man will come along. :D
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Professor Taglioni (Ducati), Henry Lyon (Jaguar) and guy from N.Z. who built a racing Indian are a few more impassioned minds who never compromised.
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The name that comes to mind for me is Preston Tucker.
As for bikes with lasting fame, I think the YZ400F might genuinely be remembered for the influence it had. Say what you want about four-strokes and performance and rules and all that, but you can't deny that this bike was a gigantic turning-point in motocross history. I think, for that reason, it may be a popular museum piece. But of course, it'll never have the kind of reputation the 490 has, I don't think.
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Britten,now there was as designer/engineer/enthusiast/brainiac etc.It's a crying shame that ended the way it did.Given the progress and deviation from conventional thinking,it's hard to say where that bike may have ended up.We may not see the likes of him for a long time to come.I was never fortunate enough to see it in person,but even to see/hear Stroud going on it on TV was something else 8)
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The initial testing for the Britten V-twin was done at Westwood racetrack (now defunct) in Coquitlam, British Columbia. My family still owns property in this area and there are trails leading directly from my family home to what was the track.
In the springtime the access road to Westwood was often blocked with snow but the track itself was clear and neighbourhood kids and myself would stage races here.
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SachsGS, do you have a connection with every single person who ever touched a motorcycle? It seems at times like you must've spent your entire life just flying thither and yon to shake hands with all the big (and little) names in the industry. How are any of us supposed to compete with that? :P
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The initial testing for the Britten V-twin was done at Westwood racetrack (now defunct) in Coquitlam, British Columbia. My family still owns property in this area and there are trails leading directly from my family home to what was the track.
In the springtime the access road to Westwood was often blocked with snow but the track itself was clear and neighbourhood kids and myself would stage races here.
Cool.If you'd been thinking you would have stashed one of the original prototypes nearby-maybe along with the one AVRO Arrow that got away.Now that would be the start of a sweet collection :D
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I guess I've led a sort of Forest Gump'ish life. I don't know why events in my life have unfolded as they have. The strange thing is I have many more stories to tell, like the time I ran over the star of "On Any Sunday" (with a Maico 500 - he was laughing) or a kid I helped who went on to win the AMA 600 Supersport crown. One of my riding buddies raced against the founder of Pro Circuit and knows him fairly well, it's a small world out there. I still remember the sound of the Britten echoing thru the hills.
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John Britten was a truely insperational man.
He nearly pulled the pin on the whole project when the front end broke on one of the first tests.
Such a waste he died so young. :'(
http://www.fasterandfaster.net/2008/01/britten-v1000-greatest-motorcycle-ever.html (http://www.fasterandfaster.net/2008/01/britten-v1000-greatest-motorcycle-ever.html)
Watch the last bit on the video below.
Thats one of the best bit of motosport gamesmanship i have ever seen.
Imagine what was going through the heads of the Ducati factory when they saw that Stroud was just playing with them. :D
John Britten watches his bike go (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6DLeXwW67E#)
Below is a link to the full doco done here in 93 for those that may be interested.
http://www.nzonscreen.com/title/britten-backyard-visionary-1993 (http://www.nzonscreen.com/title/britten-backyard-visionary-1993)
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I love how at the end of the documentary, when they have the newspaper headlines going, one of them reads, "... the most powerful four-stroke in the world..."
The implication, of course, is that even this crazy thing would've had a very difficult time indeed with keeping a two-stroke in sight.
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The point being made was it was the closest to a 500GP bike that Alan Cathcart had ever riden.
I know its not a 2 stroke but i think the point of the thread was about guys that thought outside the square.
You have read the experimental motorcycle association jetz. There is plenty of scope to build bikes that do not conform to the norm.
BTW: i have always thought that the Britten with a 500GP engine in it would have been THE fastest BIKE in the world. ;D
We will never know how the bike could have evolved with Johns untimely death
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Thanks for the links TMKIWI 8)
Yeah,2t/4t has nothing to do with the Britten.You need to remember jetz that in those days,the 2t was king so for Britten to accomplish what he did would be similar to the reverse today.Aside from that,the engine was only one part of Britten's design.Read up on the rest of the bike and think of it as compared to what was around at that time(or even nowadays for that matter) and you'll start to appreciate how truly forward thinking and ahead of his time he was.I read an article one time(Kevin Cameron I believe?)on the detailed tech aspects of the bike as related by Britten.Very shortly into it I had what would likely be a similar feeling to sitting down for a chat with Stephen Hawking.
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Jesus, you'd think I'd killed the guy's mother or something. I watched the documentary, I'm a big fan of what he accomplished. It's amazing that he got so far in competition doing things the way he did. He makes Preston Tucker look conventional. I was just pointing out the way four-strokes were seen back then, and isn't that awesome compared to today's incense-waving.
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Back to the original question, I don't think so that maico is like the album 2112 by Rush. With all the computer power the major factories have they can all build the same bike it's all about how much they want to spend on each component, Because of this everyone is on a pretty level playing field.
Back then the Japanese manufactures were in their adolesents when the Germans were in adulthood. I would love to be thrown a huge curve ball on this subject by someone like Stilh or Echo like Puch did with that twin carb rotary valve MC250 that Harry Everts used to wring out!
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Who knows, maybe one of the M.M.X.'s will be new '81 490 ;D
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You are dead right G-Money about the manufactors building essentially the same bike.
Really if Hondas were not red/Suzuki not yellow etc most people would not know one brand from the other.
Every thing is the same today. You look at most cars and if you dont look at the badge you would never know what it is.
Maybe Husky will be the first to do something different. Or Can Am
When a large company owns a small company they can experiment more without effecting the main companies sale.
With BMW money behind them they can afford to build something a bit radicle.
Same sort of thing like Ford owning Jaguar/Aston Martin.
Forget about the Japs ever making anything different to the norm. They wont take the risk.
As it was the Japenese copied the Maico. They are great copiers not innovators :(
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While it's true the Japs are great copiers their strength is that they just don't copy something-they improve on a pre-existing design.It's happened many times over the years.
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Well, they never did manage to get the powerband right, apparently. Even the newest CR500s are ridiculously zappy compared to the bike they bought and copied (and then said the big leap forward was because DeCoster joined the team!) Anyway, it seems to me that the real Japanese strength is in taking a ridiculously small four-stroke motor and making it perform better than anyone else would be able to, reliability be damned. Has it occurred to anybody that a CRF450 isn't that far removed from being 1/4 of a Civic motor, really suped-up? You have to admit, no other country has really put much effort into making 2.0L car engines that do anything but chug along with a light grocery load. It seems only natural to me that these companies would try to use that engineering on their motorsports department. And by the way, the new Lexus LFA supercar's engine was designed in part by Yamaha.
Maybe I'm just making connections where there really shouldn't be, but it does seem like small four-strokes are a fairly uniquely Japanese specialty. All the two-stroke action seems to have come first from Europe, where the 2T revolution began. That's also where 2T microcars were made by companies like Saab and... uh... Maico. And, just as a sort of plug for the home country, we had Chrysler and Mercury Marine working together on direct-injection two-strokes in the '90s, and that technology is apparently part of Mercury's current OptiMax two-stroke outboard technology that competes with Etec.
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Italy in the 50's and 60's was a place and time of great innovation. 2 litre twincam Alfa's, V8 Moto Guzzi's , 4 cyl. Benelli's ,Desmo single Ducati's, are a few of the examples.I don't see anything happening in Japan now that was not already developed in Italy in that era.
Japanese small bore 4S's are descended from German NSU and Horex motorcycles. One could also argue that the engineer behind the first YZ400 (4S) was inspired by the Husaberg MX'r.
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To be fair the Britten was a full 1000cc and the Ducati's either 851 or probably 888cc .
The Belt Drive A series 1600cc engine has powered many many Ford Escorts to World Rally Championships, contined to go up to full 2.0litre BDG series (good for 250HP) and the Zetec turbo that powers todays WRC cars. Not to mention cars like the Lancia Delta Intergrale, shopping hacks they ain't.
There is Maico 490's being built everyday just that everyother bike is a Maico 490 also the difference in performance is very minor. Not like the good old days when everything was trail and error.
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I should also add that I'd give my left @#% for a Lotus Cortina or a BMW Tii in my garage right now. :D
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A family freind has an X factory Lotus cortina raced by Jim Clark sitting in his shed. I remember the first time i saw it when i was about 10. Still as empressive today as it was then. Would hate to think what it is worth :o
Was not knocking the japenese just making the point of the sameness of things today.
Alfa's have always been crazy and one of the few cars today that you could not mistake for anything else. :)
I agree totally ford. they always improve the original design. But normally it's not their design.
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Sorry to burst your bubble jetz but the Optimax system is the orbital system from Aussie.
Ford , Chrysler , Aprillia , Mercury , BRP have all made licensed versions of it.
They actually had Ford taxis in Sydney running around with it in the 90's.
Below is a copied quote from 1995.
The Orbital Combustion Process engine has been refined into a two-stroke engine that is 50% lighter, 30% more fuel efficient, 20% cheaper to make, 70% smaller, and produces 30% less pollution than traditional engines. A plant was established in the USA to build these engines for sale to car, motorcycle and boat manufacturers to test and develop as licensees to the Australian company.
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There's more to an engine than the Orbital system, it's not like they're buying entire engines from them. While of course the Chrysler thing didn't end up being the core of the system, they did do R&D very early, and I'm thinking some of the discoveries made during the program contributed to the Orbital system, as well as whatever other eccentricities go into making the engine work.
Joe Goulart directed the 20-person engine team (a joint venture with Mercury Marine) from its creation in 1989 until he died in early 1995. ??We investigated new two-stroke engine designs from other manufacturers,? said Dr. Benjamin Sheaffer, Mercury Marine Advanced Engineering Manager, at that time. ??However, after working with Chrysler engineers and seeing first-hand their current two-stroke design and emissions control technology, we concluded that an alliance with Chrysler would serve both parties well.?
Both companies agreed to independently fund their own development activities, with the work coordinated by a program committee. If they had concluded that production was viable and cost effective, further discussions would determine production plans.
[...]
On the brighter side, the advances made by Chrysler and Mercury have been used on both automotive and boating sides. For conventional car engines, these advances include better fuel injectors, a high pressure fuel pump, and a direct injection system (which Chrysler has yet to use).
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A family freind has an X factory Lotus cortina raced by Jim Clark sitting in his shed. I remember the first time i saw it when i was about 10. Still as empressive today as it was then. Would hate to think what it is worth :o
Was not knocking the japenese just making the point of the sameness of things today.
Alfa's have always been crazy and one of the few cars today that you could not mistake for anything else. :)
I agree totally ford. they always improve the original design. But normally it's not their design.
Holy dooley got any pics? The 'ban the bomb' Lotus Cortina's are one of the most desirable classics around. A geniune one here sold for big bucks let alone one driven by Jim Clark
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There still avaliable today.....if you sell your soul.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/MAICO-ONLY-1981-490-SPECIAL-TWINSHOCK-MOTOCROSS-/260619553733?cmd=ViewItem&pt=UK_Motorcycles&hash=item3cae22cbc5 (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/MAICO-ONLY-1981-490-SPECIAL-TWINSHOCK-MOTOCROSS-/260619553733?cmd=ViewItem&pt=UK_Motorcycles&hash=item3cae22cbc5)
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That's a ridiculous tank sticker, though somehow mysteriously awesome. Although, as interesting as the story of the Cortina was to read on Wikipedia, I have to be a little more drawn to the tale of the Charger Daytona.
http://www.allpar.com/racing/200-mph-Daytona.html (http://www.allpar.com/racing/200-mph-Daytona.html)
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If only Otto und Willy were still alive to see what has become of their namesake,I think they would be very pleasently surprised. It seems the 81 MC490 has transcended time and become a sort of raceable artwork.
As a youngster,I recall seeing Lotus Cortinas, Tiis and Gordini Renaults racing at the local track. There was a hairpin corner where the 911 Porsches would lift their inside front wheel when they got on the gas.
1:45:37? Doesn't someone have school in the morning?
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That's a ridiculous tank sticker, though somehow mysteriously awesome. Although, as interesting as the story of the Cortina was to read on Wikipedia, I have to be a little more drawn to the tale of the Charger Daytona.
Yes, for some reason when Maico Only opened a shop in the UK they like to use the US flag on their page and apparently on their bikes they are selling in the UK. I guess it's like FU we are American Company B*tcha$$es. I don't know, not a logo I would have chosen, its not used in the US.
http://www.maicoonly.co.uk/ (http://www.maicoonly.co.uk/)
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I actually don't have school in the morning. Graduation is awesome.
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I actually don't have school in the morning. Graduation is awesome.
You graduated? :o Congratulations Jetz :D
That is an awesome looking bike but I would go with an original looking tank