Two Stroke Motocross
Two Stroke Motocross Forum => General Two Stroke Talk => Topic started by: TMKIWI on June 21, 2010, 09:53:03 PM
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Found this site the other day.
We are not alone :)
http://motocrosshideout.com/are-2-strokes-making-a-comeback/ (http://motocrosshideout.com/are-2-strokes-making-a-comeback/)
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When did they ever go away? ::)
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They didn't go away per se, but they definitely made a decline, a recovery from which I would say easily warrants the title of "comeback." When I was out riding, I only saw 2 two-strokes, and we owned both of them. Out of a sample of maybe 20 bikes, that's... yeah. But, I'll bet you a hundred dollars that those two-strokes put on more miles than all the other bikes combined this weekend.
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That article sums up my feelings pretty well. If any company give serious attention to research and development on 2strokes, just half of what has been given to thumpers, the 2stroke will bury the 4stroke. My fear is that, through deceit and propaganda, this may never happen, and what you see now in the KTM and Yamaha 2strokes, is as far as the technology will advance on dirtbikes. I hope my fears are unfounded, there is so much potential here that has not been tapped. Politics, and greed, often trumps logic & common sense. Thus, if the big manufacturers believe thumpers are more lucrative for them, they will continue to suppress 2strokes with everything in their power. Even now, 4strokes would not be dominating if they had to compete at the same displacement level. Pressure will be brought to bear on any company that is impudent enough to play the maverick and pursue serious development of the 2stroke. KTM is probably big enough to buck the tide but I question the depth of their commitment. Smaller companies won't have the money or will be suppressed and kept from competing by hook or crook. Again, in this, I hope I'm wrong. Sheesh, though, even the tracks these days are designed to give advantage to 4strokes!
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I think the fact that warehouses are full of unsold four-strokes is going to really be a big deciding factor for us. You mentioned that greed was part of what caused four-strokes to take over, as the bike makers saw greater potential for big profit margins in bikes and maintenance. However, I think that same greed is going to start pulling our way, as people demand something more affordable. It's like if a bunch of gas stations started charging $4.00 a gallon. Sure, they'd make a bunch of money, but pretty soon someone's eyes would turn to dollar signs and they'd slash their profit margin, in order to gain market share and boost total revenue. I think that this is going to be the big factor that brings two-strokes back, more than much of anything else. You can't make money by selling things no one can afford, and if the big execs running Kawasaki and Suzuki and so on want to keep their private jets and lobster dinners, they may well be forced to make the switch.
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I agree with Jetzcorp on this one.... as the sales of four-stroke continues to slow-down and stall, the manufacturers will look to what is selling. Warehouses full of bikes is not good for business on any level.
Should the manufacturers try not to look at the changes and attempt to sell only what they want to sell and not what people want, that vacuum will be filled by someone. Whether that's TM Racing, Maico, Gas Gas or a few new companies out of China.
In a way, we are at a crossroads, just like in the late 1960's where racers are looking for inexpensive, fun machines. The Japanese manufacturers were the ones that built those bikes and began a "revolution" in the dirt bike world. Could we be poised for another such shift in the motorcycling world? From the feedback I have garnered, it appears that it is eminent.
Full speed ahead boys, the tides they are a changing.
And they have a distinctive, Braap sound!! ;D ;D
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While I agree completely, I feel I must caution everyone... Most of us on this board grew up on smokers. As young lads, we were able to do a top end in between races. But... the youth of today have been riding thumpers for quite a while now. Many will find they are not as fast as they were on the thumper, because they have not learned the proper technique. This will keep many youngsters from converting. Many riders I've talked to (under the age of 20) are heavily influenced by the media, and the hype they put on the thumper and how theyâ??ve disrespected / belittled the smoker. Itâ??s true the "older" crowd has begun moving back over the smokers, and rediscovering the joys of riding again, but the younger generation I believe will not be so easily convinced. I hope Iâ??m wrong, (I usually am) but thatâ??s what Iâ??m seeingâ?¦.
Just my $.02 worth
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Money is scarce right now and manufacturers will invest their $'s very cautiously,and that means four strokes.I suspect a DI 2s will come first from a smaller player (how's that Ossa 280 doing?). I think Rotax is perfectly positioned to make this happen, maybe we will see something from them.
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I know the word was leaked at the dealers show in Indy a few months ago but even what I gather from the younger gen. as well as dads at the tracks is, They are following right in suit of the American lifestyle. LAZINESS. No mixing gas, less jetting, less rebuilding and easier to ride without alot of work involved. They can lug around or hold it to the rev limiter without fear of blowing it up (to an extent).
What's funny is I can rebuild 3 times for the cost of their one and do it in 1/100th of the time.
topend: 2stroke=30 min, 4 stroke= Sat Afternoon.
Either way, IMO, it's gonna be a long recovery for the 2 stroke to come back until the younger kids realize just how much fun they are. And as long as the "factory" continues to out-cc the 2 stroke in race classes, it'll be hard to really compete.
All this makes me wonder how a bike like a Service Kawasaki KX500AF would compare in the Open class. For $11k, that's not much to a decently sponsored racer.
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Sapper I completely agree... I recently saw a young man pick up a brand new left over (08) Yami 450 for $5,400. With the prices like that, they are practically giving them away, but try and find a new smoker.... good luck.
He tried riding it on the trails near my house... he boiled it twice... dropped it 4 times... His complaint was its geared to high.... :o He spent the whoel time slipping the clutch. Me and my 2000 KTM 300 was happy as could be. I'll admit the trails are tuff, but my 10 year old bike never had an issue. Now me, I did have an issue, as I'm old, fat and out of shape... well that's for another day... ;D
Again most of the younger gen, grew up on thumpers. They never developed the proper techniques. I watched the boy beat the crap out of the poor 450. He was never in the proper gear, never prepared for the next obstace, or section. He relied on the bike's torque to get him through the tougher sections. All this on stock everything. Was the jetting set up right?, and adjustments to the suspenders?... All I heard was wait until I get my new pipe... OK its already too loud, so lets make it louder so you think it has more power, power which you can't utilize now....
I'm sorry for the rant, but I jut don't see the younger generation jumping on the two stroke band wagon. They've been brain washed into thinking smokers are soooo much more maintenaince, and you have to mix the gas with the oil... you can't just steal gas out of mom or dad's car and go, you have to mix it 1st... dude. The one I love is they are tough to ride because of the power band... OK back in the day some bikes were tough to ride... I'm thinking about a 74-75 Honda Elsinore 125... yes you needed to keep it screamin as it had 0, zero, nadda low end torque. But keep her screamin, and she rewarded you. Kids today (and many in my day) had a hard time riding a machine like that. But we learned how to use a clutch, we learned how to set up for the next section, jump, or obstacle. Well guys, things have changed. Modern (ok 10 year old techology) smokers are easy to ride, light, flickable, and most of all just plain more fun to ride.
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Maybe I hang out in different circles than you guys or something... don't you go to motocross races? Every kid under 12 (okay almost every) is riding a two-stroke!!
You guys must spend too much time on message boards! lol ;D ;D :P :P
While some of them admire and want to be like the pro racers, some have a love for the two-strokes. I know one kid that quit racing because he didn't want to race a four-stroke!
Another young man (14) is a huge two-stroke fan. His dad bought him a brand new KXF250, but he prefers his much older KX125!!
Those "cheap" leftover four-strokes are not cheap in the long run.... your friend will find that out soon enough.
I'm not saying that what you guys say is not true, there are some like that. It's just that there is a new breed that does like two-strokes.
My $.02
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I just bought three 2-strokes. I'm doing my part, haha.
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Maybe I hang out in different circles than you guys or something... don't you go to motocross races? Every kid under 12 (okay almost every) is riding a two-stroke!!
You guys must spend too much time on message boards! lol ;D ;D :P :P
While some of them admire and want to be like the pro racers, some have a love for the two-strokes. I know one kid that quit racing because he didn't want to race a four-stroke!
Another young man (14) is a huge two-stroke fan. His dad bought him a brand new KXF250, but he prefers his much older KX125!!
Those "cheap" leftover four-strokes are not cheap in the long run.... your friend will find that out soon enough.
I'm not saying that what you guys say is not true, there are some like that. It's just that there is a new breed that does like two-strokes.
My $.02
John in this instance I'd be happy to shout from the roof tops that hope you are right and I am wrong.. :D I sure do hope you are right....
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Maybe I hang out in different circles than you guys or something... don't you go to motocross races? Every kid under 12 (okay almost every) is riding a two-stroke!!
You guys must spend too much time on message boards! lol ;D ;D :P :P
While some of them admire and want to be like the pro racers, some have a love for the two-strokes. I know one kid that quit racing because he didn't want to race a four-stroke!
Another young man (14) is a huge two-stroke fan. His dad bought him a brand new KXF250, but he prefers his much older KX125!!
Those "cheap" leftover four-strokes are not cheap in the long run.... your friend will find that out soon enough.
I'm not saying that what you guys say is not true, there are some like that. It's just that there is a new breed that does like two-strokes.
My $.02
John in this instance I'd be happy to shout from the roof tops that hope you are right and I am wrong.. :D I sure do hope you are right....
So do i!!
All we can do is spread the word and hopefully the 2 stroke doubters will see the light, and the manufacturers!
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I just bought three 2-strokes. I'm doing my part, haha.
Damn, what did you buy?
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I would like to think that we'll see them opn the show room floor again but really I'm not sure it will happen. The upper levels of competition have all but written them off. These things are hangin for the sheer fact that we few lovers of the smoke still buy sell and trade in them. What company of any size is going to stick their necks and wallets out to try and disprove that 2 strokes are dead. The tree huggin liberals in the US won't stand for it, even if it menas they are going deaf from the 4 beast nosie. Yeah there's KTM and TM but with new development fromthe Euro's comes a hefty price tag. I know one thing for sure. As long as I can get parts for my KX250 I;m gonna be riding it.
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I hear people say that four-strokes make for lazy riding because you can lug them out of corners. I think the important correction to be made is that large displacement bikes let you lug them out of corners. When I got off my 250 and onto a 390, the difference in low-end was MORE than the difference between the 120 and the 250. The two bikes are geared practically the same, but the 390 easily allows the rider to go along at practically no speed at all. I'm talking sub-idle RPM here, it's really phenominal how much low-end a big two-stroke has. And that's just a little 390. If we had equal displacement and they let 450s go into the fray, I guarantee you people would stop talking about four-strokes as though they were somehow easier for a lazy rider. It's not that they have low-end, it's that they lack top-end.
Anyway, that's my paragraph response to 1/2 of someone's sentence way back somewhere.
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Here in the UK we have seen the tide turn, its slow but there are more 2st's being ridden, or it just maybe less 4st's out there ? Our local practice track get's a full mix of riders as its rough and virtually all weather, this year alone the split on any day will be 50/50, 3 years ago it would of been only 20% 2st. Thing is, the oldest 4st seen last week was a 2005 450f, the oldest 2sts thats there everyweek is a 1996 250, yea there are older bikes now and then, but where are all the 1997>2004 4sts ? There's a growing market here for late 4st rolling chassis for 2st projects, I myself bought a 2008 250f roller for £500 and put a 2004 sx200 motor into it, infact its now got a 2002 125 motor in there.
You are right about kids wanting to race 4sts as their easy, but thats a rule drawn up by faceless profiteerers, give us equal dissplacements and lets see how many cam lovers drop their valves for premix. Our schoolboy series have a few 150f's but major on the sx85, at club level where kids are not blessed with ability you may see a few more 4sts, We are all hoping we take the stance of the rest of Europe and exclude the 150 from competition until a rider is 16yo, keeping kids on a max 125cc
We have 3 different National 2st series to race at, and they get attention from big sponsors the press and spectators, as long as we keep buying 2st equipment, it will be made as its a big (and getting bigger) part of our dirtbike bussiness. To big to let go I'd say !
At the end of the day its riders that make the choice what gets made and sold, Honda made that mistake here, by stopping their 125 and 250 cr's and giving loyal customers no choice, they fully expected guys to just swap to their 4sts, that didn't happen and Honda suffered for sure, that along with all the problems they've been having, have IMO dropped the big red company well down the list
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