Two Stroke Motocross
Two Stroke Motocross Forum => General Two Stroke Talk => Topic started by: Coop on October 26, 2010, 04:43:59 AM
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This article reads more like just a press release about "improved' the 450F is, but I figured I'd post it here anyway for discussion:
http://www.kawasaki.com.au/kawpublic_docs/TitleFight-KX500VSKX450F.pdf (http://www.kawasaki.com.au/kawpublic_docs/TitleFight-KX500VSKX450F.pdf)
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Good Read, I'm pretty sure a 500 would put me in the ground. :)
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When I bought my KTM 300, I came really close to getting a KX500. Since I'm more of a harescrambler than a MX guy, so I went for the 300. If more suited for the woods and trails than the 500... (But I still want a 500) 8)
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They need to test it against a Service Honda KX500AF. But we all know we'll never see that test. Another article to show everyone how wonderful and modern the new 4-strokes are, since it can beat the mighty KX500.
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Set the KX500 up in the right frame, with a decent rear tire so it can put that power to the ground, and it would easily eat that 450, provided you had a rider who knew how to use that extra power. Thing is though, compared to a more modern 250 2stroke, the old 500s were actually pretty underpowered and mildly tuned. Imagine a 500 built with similar specs as say, a KTM 250SX. That would make the KX 500 feel like a slug in comparison.
Anyhow, in the pdf article, at the end, it said that on the site, http://www.transmoto.com.au/ (http://www.transmoto.com.au/) we'd be able to see the dyno test on the two machines. I'd really like that, but although I found a couple of videos of this test, I could not find a dyno report for either bike. Anyone know where it is?
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I was flicking through Transmoto the other day at the newsagent and had a quick read of that comparo, the dyno readings between the two were so different, the 500 ate the 450 by close to 10 hp, also like they said, in a roling start drag race on a dirt road the 500 blew the 4t crap into the weeds........500cc of pure arm stretching grunt!!! Gotta love it!! :D
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If you can recall, what were the hp and torque readings for the two, Scotty? I think the modern dynos give very different readings than the older ones I was used to. As close as you can recall, however, what were they?
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I cant recall the torque mate but think the HP was like 48 for the 4t and 57 for the 500. I may be wrong but i think it is around that.
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Or can they? How does the old KX500 - arguably the most powerful of all the 500s - measure up to Kawasaki's latest Open-class motocrosser?
Arguably indeed!
I like the final picture, though. The rider on the KX450F seems to be thinking, "Alright, let's haul this thing back into the air and impress some people." The rider on the KX500 seems to be thinking, "Woah, I need to get this thing back on the ground!"
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Get them both out in the desert and see what happens. By 2000 there wasn't a great deal of moto DNA left in the KX500.
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Put the 500 engine in the 450 frame done deal.
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Thanks, Scotty. The desert is where I'd prefer testing the two myself, Sachs. There and on extremely steep and high sand dune hills. In such situations, given optimum gearing on both machines, the 2stroke would own the thumper with ease, that one, or any other. The KX 500 owned Baja as long as Kawasaki chose to compete there, and still would, if they made the model and stood behind it.
As I see it. say KTM built a 6 speed, 450, just like their 300 2stroke only bigger, you'd have a very ride-able, controllable 2stroke, which would blow away any 450 4stroke, and probably even beat an old CR or KX 500 through the gears as well. You'd have a motor that would do either moto or enduro equally well depending on your style, and it would take no new research or development to build. You could scream it in the desert, or lug it like a trials machine in the woods, or anything in between including motocross. I'm positive if KTM or somebody built such a machine, they'd sell them almost instantly. Think about it. If you tried the reverse, build a 300 4stroke bike to match a KTM 300, you simply couldn't do it. It could never be as versatile, reliable, etc.
Why is Maico the only manufacturer to build a real open class 2stroke? KTM could certainly do it at a big profit. Why they won't, is a mystery to me. It saddens me that you cannot buy a new 450 or 500 2stroke these days the way you can say, a 300. Sure, a Maico, if you can find it and afford it, but that shouldn't be one's only option other than buying an old bike and rebuilding it up to modern specs.
Even if they didn't allow such a machine to compete on MX tracks against 450 thumpers, I'll wager it would still outsell them. Play riders would buy it simply because it would be considerably more powerful than a 450 4stroke, far more reliable and less expensive to maintain. It would out acclerate, out climb and therefore, outsell the 450 thumper. It would also be very easy to ride, fast or slow, for these lazy people who have gotten used to smoother, 4stroke type powerbands and cannot control explosive old 2strokes. I've never heard anyone say that a KTM 300 is difficult to handle due to its power delivery. Far from it, everyone seems to love it. It can lug as well as any 400 4stroke and out accelerate them when called upon to do so. Imagine the exact same only 150 CCs larger, and proportionately more powerful! People don't like to use the word "conspiracy," but what else could it be? Everyone would win in such a situation. Riders would benefit and the factory would certainly make a profit. I just wish factories would build both types and let riders buy what they want.
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Something else occurred to me when I read this quote from the pdf article, "the old KX500 - arguably the most powerful of all the 500s." That is arguable, but probably true of the Japanese 500s. I rather doubt the KX500 could have beaten the '82 KTM 495, or '95/'96 KTM 550, certain years of the Husky 500 CRs or the '83 Maico Sand Spider (properly tuned and geared). I guess this goes out to Maico International then. Without having to give away any trade secrets, can you or anyone else, for that matter, positively confirm or deny, that a new Maico 500 could beat a KX or CR 500 through the gears in a drag race? Does it have more power? I know, the 700 does, that isn't the question though. I'm not asking if it would win around a track, or if it has smoother power, am talking quantity here for those who really want to know. Can anyone guarantee that a new Maico 500 is more powerful than a KX 500. Also, I'm talking about max power, not low end, I mean given good traction, can it smoke a KX through the gears. I'd never shell out the money for one unless I knew they could guarantee that "unequivocally."
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You guys need to check out the comparo that Motocross Action did with the KX 500. They did use a Service Honda(Kawasaki) KX500AF, on a long term test, and one of the ex pros went and raced it. He was consistently 2 seconds a lap faster on the 500 over his KX450 lap times. He also claimed he felt slower on the 500, and that is was easier to ride than the 450. Work that out. He was still going way faster.
Also, that Transmoto test, using Peter Meltons old KX500 race bike for the test, was not quite a true test, as many parts were missing off that bike, as the bike had sat in Whaley's shed for 10 years and all the good bits had been stripped off it by mates of Brett's, and they had to use standard stuff to put back it back together. I told him they should have used his KX 500 race bike from 2000 when they had transplanted the 500 motor into the 2000 model KX250 chassis. They weren't able to organise that bike in time. Also that track was hardpack and super slick, and would have been a real struggle to punt a basically standard KX 500 around for many laps. Pete did mention that he had a blast riding that bike again.
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Definitely agree with Turquine and Swapper. It will be awesome when and if Maico comes out and we can get a test of the Maico 320, KTM 300, TM300. I can't remember if Husky is making a 300 or not.
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I have found newer Maico 500s, anachronisms that they are, to be deceptively fast. I have ridden with KX500s and assumed that they would be quicker then the ultra smooth Maicos, imagine my surprise when I found myself pulling them across fields etc. time and time again. Another time I was riding sweep at a race with a friend of mine, a masters level rider on a CR500. Down the connecting fire roads he would blast me with rocks out of every corner and, after the barrage of debris subsided,I would twist the Maico's throttle and effortlessly reel him in.
The Maico 320 is a gem, when finances allow I will try to get one.
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If Kawi or Honda ever threw all their resources into building a 450-500cc 2 stroke, the results would be devastating. i mean a state-of-the-art big bore 2 stroke that would eat a KX450F for lunch and shit the parts out its stinger. Even Service Honda uses engines that are actually decades-old designs.
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Thanks again, Sachs, that's the kind of info I'm always looking for. I had an idea the newer Maico 500s could probably out pull the older CR and KX 500s, stands to reason. I'd just never heard of anyone in a situation to test it.
Take a look at this little drag race -->
KTM 300 2010 VS Yamaha 450 2007
KTM 300 2010 VS Yamaha 450 2007.wmv (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmKbDBEhxOM#)
Now imagine if the KTM 300 enduro here were a 450. I think you'd have a motor that would make for a good MX bike that would be powerful, tractable, easy to ride, and considerably quicker than any 450 4stroke, like I suggested earlier. Seems to me, such a machine would eliminate most of the complaints made about the KX 500 in the Aussie test. Personally, I like explosive power like the KX delivers -- where I ride, it isn't a threat most of the time, and it's great on dunes with a good Cheng Shin tire with REAL knobs :-)
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the 450 is a WR?
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A friend has a WR450 and it is a dog compared to my Maico 380.
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Yes, the 450 is a WR, and had it been the motocross version, it would have beaten the 300. Not, however, were the 300 a 450 also, as I've suggested. In that case, it would be considerably quicker than any motocross 450 4stroke, but with the rideability of the 300. Same type of power delivery as the 300, just with 150cc more in displacement. I'm only suggesting that such a bike would eliminate many of the complaints currently directed towards big-bore 2strokes like the CR and KX 500s, such as being too explosive and hard to control, as the 300 is very mildly tuned compared to a normal MX 2stroke. A 450 version with pretty much the same configuration, would still be very controllable, could lug or scream, would be faster and more powerful than any 450 thumper, smooth and tractable too boot. That seems to be what so many modern testers want these days and what they claim works for motocross tracks in their current design. Not being a motocrosser or woods rider, that isn't what I would want, I'd want all the horsepower I could wring out of the thing, but I was suggesting such a motor for motocross, and I think it would consistently beat 450s around a track as well as be easy to ride and not so tiring to ride for long motos. Of course, I doubt they'd ever let anyone ride it in a pro level MX race, but it would prove that twostrokes can be smooth, tractable, easy and non-tiring to ride, and still considerably more powerful than any 4stroke of the same displacement. Doesn't anyone follow my reasoning here?
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If you read between the lines as I did, the old, ancient technology of the KX 500, (this bike is now 11 years old,) stacked up pretty well against a "modern" bike. Letâ??s face the facts, the KX 500 had little to updates for several years, just BNG... So we're truly comparing 15+ year old technology against the so called the best of the day... Truly with little time to get reacquainted to the big bike, the riders did pretty well. Did you expect the report to say the 11 year old KX 500 kicked the butt of the new and highly hyped 450.... of course not. I think they were surprised to see the 500 may not be the beast they remember, and if the engine was in a modern frame (which now changes as they called it the tallness of the 500), with modern brakes, (yes it had disc's, but tell me the new brakes are not better), plusher suspension, (you want to put the power to the ground, this requires proper suspension, again newer technology). At least they used a test rider that actually rode and raced the 500's... not a (no offence to the youngsters out there) to a snot nosed kid who grew up on thumpers.
They intended to show how much better the 450 is than a 500.... all they proved, is that even at the higher levels, a new 450 is only slightly better than 15 year old technology, and slightly better than a 11 year old bike.