Two Stroke Motocross
Two Stroke Motocross Forum => General Two Stroke Talk => Topic started by: JohnN on June 10, 2010, 10:33:15 AM
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Hello Guys,
As you know we have been working very hard on getting the bike all ironed out and ready to race. There have been some very interesting developments, hence some delays.
One of our sponsors Craig at MicroBlue has helped us in more ways than I could ever convey...
His help and guidance have taken us down a path we would never have suspected.
Over my vacation I wrote the beginning of the article now published on the main TSM site.
http://twostrokemotocross.com/2010/06/microblue-racing-sponsors-project-two-50-results-in-low-emission-yz250-two-stroke/ (http://twostrokemotocross.com/2010/06/microblue-racing-sponsors-project-two-50-results-in-low-emission-yz250-two-stroke/)
May I ask you a favor? For those of you that think this is worth sharing, would you mind posting a link on other message boards you may be members of?
That would be greatly appreciated.
I know that I'm asking a great deal here, but if you do post it be respectful and don't knock anyone. All that stuff does is force folks to "defend" themselves and lose sight of what's truly important.
Thank you!
John
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Are you going to race or not?
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Hey John i posted it on my blog on my message board but not alot of people go there yet(im working on that)but i posted it anyways,its strickly a moto board and if any of you want to join be my guest.Pm me for the info........Braaaaappppppppppppppp ;D
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Done.Pretty interesting stuff there John.Have you put a sniffer up the pipe to compare actual emission levels and percentages or is the reduction primarily due to a leaner oil mix.Sometimes as HC goes down ox/n goes up etc.Just curious.
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Hey John,
I noticed on the Micro Blue website that they dont list a microblue bearing kit for the YZ250. I take it now that they have done yours that they will have a kit available. I am super interested in going through my motor and replacing all bearings with these micro blue bearings.
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Are you going to race or not?
YES!! We will be at Budds Creek.
Ford - Yes we used an emissions gas analyzer to test the emissions. I am not at liberty to share the readings..... They are not the property of Project Two 50, at lest not yet! ;D
I know that some folks have commented on the leaner oil not contributing to lower emissions.. I do not claim to know everything but I have a few thoughts to share, you make up your own mind.
The way it was explained to me is that the oil particulate matter in two-stroke exhaust is much larger than the gas particulates. These particles have a tendency to "push" the gas particles out, sort of like a bowling ball to pins. As most everyone knows, there is a supercharger effect that draws a large portion of fuel back into the cylinder.
Now for some questions to ponder... could it be that those big oil particles could prevent the gas particles from being pushed back into the engine? Is it possible that the oil could lower the temperature inside the exhaust pipe? You could theorize that the oil could prevent the unburned gas from evaporating....
Like I said at the beginning, I don't know the answers and will not really know the full scope of what we have accomplished until the bike is tested by an independent testing facility.
SwapperMX - Please give MicroBlue Racing a call... they have the YZ250 engine bearing kits in stock.
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Done, on my facebook, plus the other local board I frequent.
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Thank you Coop!
Some additional information. The first part was written by me as a reply on the comment section on the main site. The second part was written by Craig LeClaire that he posted on a Two Stroke Tech site. It is a more technical in nature than my response. Posted here for your "enjoyment". LOL
John's Comment;
Hi Guys,
Lot??s of stuff we are just starting to let people know about, I am not at liberty to talk about everything at this time, but I??ll attempt to answer some questions.
First and foremost DO NOT run your machines at 100:1 Our machine has been run at 100:1 for over 4 hours without any noticeable wear.
The coating process we are using affects the metal at the molecular level, you can equate it to showering with soft water, you feel really slippery.
The coatings we are using are NOT available to the public at this time. There will be NO plans to do so UNTIL every single claim made has been tested under tortuous conditions and confirmed by independent testing.
At this time only the MicroBlue coated bearings are available to the general public.
The reason for the larger jet size is not due to any radical internal engine work, our test engine is mildly ported at this point.
The coating treatment breaks many rules of engine building, the one aspect I will share with you is that the bore is perfectly smooth? no cross hatching at all.
Before I tell you why, ask yourself a question, why are cross hatches cut into the cylinder wall? Ask 5 people you may get 6 different reasons!
Here is an analogy to help you along? if you are water skiing, what type of water will allow your skis to maintain contact with the water best, Choopy or smooth as glass?
The rings are matched perfectly under a microscope to ensure perfect fit ( this is currently a 20 hour process to get the rings just right) and when the engine goes together no break in time is required. That??s right no rings to ??seat? just get on and go.
This process also improves the ability of the engine to pump air (isn??t an engine just an air pump after all?) Because of the tight seal of the rings air flow through the motor is increased, hence the need for larger jets.
Much of what we are doing is experimental in nature and breaks many of the paradigms of engine building. Again this will not be available to the public until it is tested and confirmed by a third party.
As to the claims of emissions, we tested the bike using a state of the art Gas Analyzer, before making any statements? has anyone else out there tested emissions on a two-stroke motocross bike using this type of equipment?
I am not here to convince anyone of these claims, just letting folks know what we are working on and working towards. Low emissions on a normally aspirated two-stroke.
For now you can come out to the races and cheer us on. Or maybe watch to see if the bike can hold up using 100:1 gas/oil mixture. I will say this as we move forward we will be experimenting with even leaner mixture ratios?
Actually it??s kind of funny when we mix the oil. Because we are using so little oil, we need to use a syringe!
Craig's reply on another message board;
You are correct that scavenging are always present and this is the source of the unburned hydrocarbons that all 2 strokes emit. And are in fact the part of the emissions that kills. However, the size of those particles are so small that in order to disperse in the atmosphere they need to "hitch a ride" on a particulate particle. So in a sense get rid of the human and you have stopped the spread of smallpox (only analogy I could think of!). The PM 2.5 refers to a particulate size in nanometers. It is this size that likes to embed in the lungs like asbestos and becomes the gift that keeps on giving.
Our research has shown that as we approach a 200:1 ratio the particulates are functionally eliminated. Bear in mind that this research has been carried out with very cheap leaf blowers, like the one in our website. With those, since they use something that resembles a piston and ring, the combustion efficiency is horrible. But the particulates are still eliminated. Last fall, in order to test the EPA 60 hr. durability test, I mixed up a pickle bucket with a 200:1 mixture of cheap Homelite oil, took it out to the barn, started it up on a Friday afternoon, put it in a box and let it run. I came back later that Sunday and it was still running, wide open. True story. Looking at the parts under a scope it was evident that there was no contact on either the big and small end of the rod. Considerable blow-by, but I expected that. But the particulates were still eliminated.
Regarding ring seal, the increase in power with richer mixtures most see is due to the oil filling the areas in the ring lands and bore. You see this because the rings are rarely flat and round. Wound steel, chrome faced rings tend to be dished and iron rings tend to be wavy. The first thing we do is check for this and correct that. The most important thing to understand about MicroBlue is it's interaction with lubricants. Due to the two sulphur atoms present, wan a hydrocarbon comes in contact with that surface, the surface tension is greatly reduced, like soap in soft water. This does a few things. First and formost, we no longer have lubricant starved conditions, like in ring lands. Microwelding does not exist in our world. And we can run much tighter clearances. Put flat and round rings in, and you have increased air flow considerably. This also let's us run chrome-smooth bores, since we have a much more uniform oil film which the rings actually float on. This eliminates the gas loss across the face of the ring that cross hatch creates and since the ring faces don't touch the bore, there is no ring face wear. In our world that is.
The end result of all of this is a dramatic increase in total air flow. Typically 15% in two strokes and 20-25% in four strokes and diesels. I know this is an insane number but considering the the number of engine platforms we have worked with, this number has been surprisingly consistent. Thats how inefficient the piston/ring/cylinders are That is the reason for the increased jetting needed. If we need X% more fuel in a normally aspirated engine to get a tan plug, then you can only be moving that much more air.
Regarding jet sizing, Mikuni jet sizes represent flow in cc's per min, I assumed this carb was the same. Am I incorrect on this? All we know is a 215 gives us the tan plug color. And percent wise, is consistent with what we have seen in the past. Does this info help?
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Interesting.Thanks for the info John.I'd have a few questions here but will wait for the final data/results.
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I found the microblue bearing thread, haha. But there,s bad news on there website most 2-st bearings are not listed anymore. Example there was cr125,cr250 now there,s nothing listed. Along with nothing for YZ,or RM, but they have kits for KTM,s yet.
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A YZ don't need no stinkin' special coatings. :D
I was curious what actually caused the final meltdown but in the end,I had to be content with my own suppositions. ::)
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710
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710
710 ? What,s that Glen, are we using code again haha. If so I forgot what 710 is.
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Yes we are talking in code.
Write "710 ON" on a peice of paper, then turn it upside down. this will be the reason that project 250 failed.
:o
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Ok a 0 is the same, a 1 is a 1 upside down, and a 7 upside down is not a number. So I got it 01 in code is a batch of bad gas. ;D
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Write "710 ON" on a peice of paper,
;D Clever.
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Write "710 ON" on a peice of paper,
;D Clever.
yeah, its an old joke... kinda like my riding skilz...
something about a lady that lost her 710 cap, i thought of the "on" myself.. yes I've been drinking...
32:1 = code for my top end last a long time
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I didn't follow this project 250 at the time but hats off to everyone involved.
They could have kept doing the same thing that everyone has for years, however they decided to push the envelope in a major way!
History obviously shows they went too far but I am sure much was learnt from the experiment.
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That was my supposition but more data would have been good.Pics of the failure maybe and future advancements/alterations to the procedure.Oh well.