Two Stroke Motocross
Two Stroke Motocross Forum => General Two Stroke Talk => Topic started by: maicoman009 on July 14, 2010, 01:46:02 PM
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In the recent August 2010 issue of MXA Hondas development engineer was asked the question...Is there a future for two-strokes? and while I'm not going to post every answer he gave in MXA word for word I would like to post his 1st four answers to the said ?
1) There is no future for two-strokes at Honda.
2) Our policy is 100% four-stroke.
3) It's a green issue.
4) Honda strongly believes in this in every product it makes,from motorcycles to garden trimmers.
These are the answers that were given by Taichi Honda in the latest issue of MXA concerning the future of 2-strokes! Well at least the future of 2-strokes according to Honda.. >:(
It's reasons like these as well as some of Hondas past decisions concerning two-strokes that makes me have very little if any respect for that company...!
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You know, I have no problem with Honda going the "4 Stroke only" route, but only if they believe their 4 strokes are superior or equal to 2 strokes. So if they "vote" to allow the AMA rules to be changed to equal displacement for all engines, then good for Honda. But I doubt they will because they KNOW that if the rule is changed, and they're the only company not selling a competition 2 stroke, they will be the unerdogs. Just going on lap times alone, I think there is plenty of room for competition for both types of engines and in a variety of CC's. They could have their factory riders on 4 strokes for "4-stroke" tracks and have them ride 2 strokes for "2-stroke" type tracks.
It'll never happen though, UNLESS by some miracle, the rules change to be equal.
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My biggest problem with four-strokes in general is the enormous amount of money they cost in up keep. Especially the modern four-strokes..? Back in the late 70's & 80's when they (4-strokes) were air cooled and did'nt have titanium valves & the very,very high rev ceilings that they have today they were pretty reliable bikes,but the new breed of four-strokes are just way too costly for alot of the younger generation of Motocross racers & privateers.
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Awhile back I saw Honda had a two smoker that they claimed would be the future!! They called it the 'ARC' it was almost diesel like the spark plug cut out at a certian RPM I'll bet RIFF RAFF has this article cut out of the magazine somewhere.
So now they claim 4-stroke will be the future? how many times can they change thier minds? If the 2t manufacturers keep stealing sales from them I'm sure they will flip flop again!
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Funny thing, Honda lost all of my business because of their "no more two strokes" stance, And all of their political BS with the unfair four stroke handicap.
I spend a small amount of money on dirt bikes, But much more on cars, trucks, garden equipment and generators.
I was a loyal Honda customer for many years. I will never purchase another Honda product.
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1) There is no future for two-strokes at Honda.
2) Our policy is 100% four-stroke.
3) It's a green issue.
4) Honda strongly believes in this in every product it makes,from motorcycles to garden trimmers.
I thought there was a rather positive facet to what he said, UNLESS you were waiting for a new Honda 2 stroke.
My favorite thing was that he stated openly, "There is a 2 stroke resurgence." Interesting that this Honda guy would be honest and willing to acknowledge this resurgence, while most of the industry and media stripes seem hell bent on minimizing or outright denying it and/or using their influence to try to slow it or marginalize it.
Also, Mr Honda responded to the question, "Which bike are you particularly proud of?" by saying "I have worked on many bikes through the years, and I liked the 250 two strokes."
Watching one of those works of art in motion with a great rider on board, it's plain to see why.
2003 Minneapolis Supercross - Part 1 of 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4vpUw1C63o#)
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he also said he owns and rides an '05 and '07 CR250R. hmmmm.
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Yeah, you're right! They don't make 2 strokes anymore and they say they won't ever again, but this one guy seems pretty positive on them for the most part.
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Agree GlennC.
I grew up on hondas but wont touch anything of theirs now. >:(
Honda have repeatedly threatend to pull out of different championships over the years if the rules dont go their way.
I say let them. :)
They will come crawling back before long.
The new moto2 class is a classic example of Honda getting its own way..Yes the racing is close, but how the hell did the FIM let it happen and then make honda the engine supplier >:(
Now road racing has the same problem as mx with the kids having to jump from 125's straight onto 600cc's.Which are slower then the 250's :(
And now they are saying the 125's are going next.
This is suposed to be gp racing not "production" racing.We already have production racing.
Build the ultimate engine and chassis to a given cc & weight.Thats it !
If Honda didn't have an ingrained anti 2 stroke policy i am sure they would have 2 stroke street bikes & dirt bikes that were quicker, lighter and more economical then 4 strokes.
10 years with no new research and development and cc for cc the 4 strokes are still not better then a 2 stroke. :D
I think its time the manufactors looked in the mirror and thought to themselves, " Are we doing the right thing"
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ok I have a serious question I just got done watching the 2005 san diego supercross and I'm having a hard time with what is different? Are the 2010 450's that much different than the 05's as far as power cause I just saw carmichael and reed lap the entire field on 250's and not to mention windham was on a 450 what is it that makes the 250 2t so unattractive to ride these day. I'm having a hard time figuring out this one as well if a 250 2t is faster than a 250 4t but the 250 4t's alot of times put down the same time as the 450's why is it not 250 vs 250?? I'm soooo lost
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I could'nt have said it better TMKIWI...! Honda is clearly against all 2-strokes even products like weed whackers...?!How ridiculous is that? Ironically the first ride I ever owned was a Honda mini trail 50 but I was only 7 years old & did'nt know any better but I sure know better now..
Long live European two-strokes...!!!aye.
TM
KTM
HUSABERG "Now that they have a couple 2-strokes".
HUSQVARNA
BETA
MAICO
GAS GAS
And any other Euro brand thats NOT afraid to build top notch smokers..!!! :) :P ;)
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Awhile back I saw Honda had a two smoker that they claimed would be the future!! They called it the 'ARC' it was almost diesel like the spark plug cut out at a certian RPM I'll bet RIFF RAFF has this article cut out of the magazine somewhere.
Sorry G, don't have the article handy but I definitely remember it and I'll find it again
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Awhile back I saw Honda had a two smoker that they claimed would be the future!! They called it the 'ARC' it was almost diesel like the spark plug cut out at a certian RPM I'll bet RIFF RAFF has this article cut out of the magazine somewhere.
Sorry G, don't have the article handy but I definitely remember it and I'll find it again
Is this what you're talking about??
http://twostrokemotocross.com/2008/11/honda-exp-2-the-return-of-two-strokes/ (http://twostrokemotocross.com/2008/11/honda-exp-2-the-return-of-two-strokes/)
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Different article but same engine I think
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It,s all about the sale of parts, Honda does a parts price check every 30 days. If you tell the parts guy, the wrist pin bearing is 8.30, he,ll tell you that he has to check yet, because Honda goes over parts prices everyday 30 days. It,s a shame honda caved in to the green bs, because they built the best handling 125 of all time. Talk to a retired pro, he,ll tell yeah, and factory connection,s owners kid has 2 cr125 07,s, I just found that out. I,m sure they have money to buy, any bike you can think of. But he choses to ride a cr125, the same bike as the 05, the 02- 04 had small changes, to the frame. Remember Honda had to giveaway big tool boxes to sell there bikes and lost there star McGrath. They went nutso on the chasis, and got it near perfect.
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Hands up anyone ,who if they were a MD of a company and you designed a product that was cheaper to make and outperformed your current product.
Would you shelve it ? ???
Make you think doesn't it.
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>:D I've hated Honda for a while now. The Moto2 thing sealed that deal, what a bunch of $loaded$ cry babies. I hope Honda doesn't sell a single four stroke bike this year and causes the whole company to collapse. I'll laugh.
But to the Moto2 thing, they either paid the FIM off or the FIM has former Honda employees running it. That class sucks!! I really don't see a difference except that the 250's were faster and more exciting to watch. The 600's are like production bike racing BORING!!!!!!!! And every bike is a modified CBR600 engine with a custom chassis. What are they going to do to the 125's now? Put CRF450 engines in a custom chassis.
At least for road racing I can still buy a older Yamaha TZ 250 and race it in WERA, CCS, or USGPRU (for know). Who needs the FIM or the AMA any way. 8)
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^ I agree, I am thinking of dropping out of AMA district 37 racing, And racing USDR here in SoCal.
I can't stand giving the AMA my money while the unfair 4 stroke handicap in in place for pro racing. This crap is eliminating any chance for the privateer.
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I remember when the AMA wasn't what it is... but now it SUCKS!
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Why worry so much about honda. Here in europe people are going back to 2 strokes maily becaquse the 4 strokes are to expensive to maintain. So if honda does not want to manufacture 2 stroke what is the problem? Just buy an other brand. About motorcycling racing only 15 bikes in motogp now because too expensive for privateers. It is a shame.
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It is a damn shame Honda dont make 2 smokes any more, ive had afew Hondas in my life and i think they build one of the best finished and most reliable bikes around.
I love my 05 and will maybe never get rid of it, i will NEVER buy a CRF though!
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Why worry so much about honda. Here in europe people are going back to 2 strokes maily becaquse the 4 strokes are to expensive to maintain. So if honda does not want to manufacture 2 stroke what is the problem? Just buy an other brand. About motorcycling racing only 15 bikes in motogp now because too expensive for privateers. It is a shame.
For me, I grew up on a Honda and have a good relationship with my local Honda dealer. The parts inventory is very good as well, Honda's US headquarters is 30 miles from me.
Luckily for me, The same dealer is a Yamaha dealer as well. I just picked up a YZ250, And so did the sales manager, I have his commitment on parts inventory. So I guess I'm a Yamaha guy now ;D
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If Honda is so certain of the future of four strokes why don't they build a 4s chainsaw?
Untill then,I'd place my bets on a DI 2s.
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As far as I'm concerned, Honda made the Red Rockets in the late '70s, then carbon-copied the 490 to make their excellent CR480, and the rest just isn't really worth mentioning, except maybe the early Elsinores. What I see in Honda is a company that has the potential and even to a large extent, the engineering culture to produce some of the best bikes on the planet. They simply know how to roll in and take care of bidness. However, there's just one little bit of the formula that just turns the whole rest of it into manure, and that's this zealous anti-2T policy. Mr. Honda may tell the magazines that they stopped making two-strokes in order to make a more beautiful and healthy environment, complete with clearer skies and prettier butterflies, but this man KNOWS that one of his company's engineers produced a two-stroke that laid all their four-strokes to waste in emissions. That thing wasn't shut down because it couldn't perform, or wasn't good for the polar bears. It was shut down because... they just have something against two-strokes. I can't even begin to fathom why they take this silly little stance, but they do! Couple this with their propensity to lobby for unfair rules to support bad engineering, rather than creating good engine to conquer fair rules, and they've got themselves firmly mounted on the official JETZcorp Boycott List.
And if Honda wants off that list, they better turn around and become the engineering company they're so proud to claim themselves as. And here's an idea, how about they send one of their many many many PR people onto this forum once a week? Just assign the "forum guy" and have him make the rounds throughout some of the notable and influential internet forums, including this one. I mean, if someone from Maico can find the time to do it, surely a company as large as Honda can spare one guy for half an hour out of the week to try and address the one group of people that are going to go out and tell their friends not to buy their stuff.
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In europe i guess 75% of sold motox bikes are KTM anyway. Honda not popular at all. Every country has so it brands. I guess in the US they like japanese bikes more. But here if honda does not want to make 2 strokes the hell with them not popular anyway. I tell you again here in europe more and more 2 strokes. For the rest same thing as in the US very cheap secondhand 4 strokes and more expensive secondhand 2 strokes.
One of my friends just traded in his 2 stroke gas gas enduro for a ktm sx 250. The shop who traded in his gas gas told him: we only trade in your bike because it is a 2 stroke. Several years ago noone wanted 2 strokes now they only want 2 strokes.
Lots of manufacturers produce 2 strokes so not much problems if you want to buy one. I know the best prof riders in the US are riding japanese bikes but really those riders would also win on ktm's or other brands. I know because i know former world champion pedro Tragter. Even on a 125 he won enduro races. And was much faster then any bike on the track (2 or four stroke no matter what displacement).
Even if 4 strokes are faster which i think they are not but lets presume so. Are we worldchampions over here? No we wanna have fun for decent costs. And then 2 stroke is the way to go. If the 4 strokes were so superior on all fronts noone would ride a 2 stroke anymore. It seems this is not the case because the request for 2 strokes is getting higher and higher.
Tell me what should be the reason for young guys to buy four strokes? Because they think they are the fastest bikes. In a lot of cases our lives are ruled by propaganda! Certainly in the US. Look at fox news the terrorist thing axis of evel Iran and so on. How many times on fox news did i hear Barrack HUSSAIN Obama.Also they told people that Hugo Chavez is a dictator. yeah ok. Same with bikes buy the bike you want and do not listen to what manufacturers tell you. Because they always will tell you latest model is the best and so on. Buy your 2 stroke have fun and do not even think about what honda wants to produce. Because why should we.
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" Mr. Honda may tell the magazines that they only make two-strokes in order to make a more beautiful and healthy environment, complete with clearer skies and prettier butterflies, but this man KNOWS that one of his company's engineers produced a two-stroke that laid all their four-strokes to waste in emissions. That thing wasn't shut down because it couldn't perform, or wasn't good for the polar bears. It was shut down because... they just have something against two-strokes. "
Yeah and that's another one of the major reasons why I have very,very,very little respect for Honda.!!! and I seen a little typo in your quote JETZ,[Mr. Honda may tell the magazines that they only make four-strokes in order to make a more beautiful and healthy enviroment] Not two-strokes..JETZ..lol,lol. Anyway why in the blue hell would Honda decide to NOT only shelve that great 2-stroke engine design but to also demote the enginneer that built the awesome 2-stroker ???
There's just one more thing I'd like to say and that is the more I think about Hondoo making such a royal friggin mistake like that I can recant saying I have very,very,very little respect for Honda,I can now say "I have NO RESPECT FOR THEM AT ALL ! >:D
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It's no secret Honda has always been against the 2 strokes. The whole push into 2 strokes in the 70s was out of necessity, not want. (And they made it very known then, and all the way up until they killed off their 2 stroke lineup in 2007).
What I did find refreshing in the article however was his admission that there is a 2 stroke resurgence, and personally he liked the CR250s the most out of all the other bikes he has helped design and or ride. Pretty candid coming from a Honda employee, but don't ever expect Honda to -EVER- come back into the 2 stroke market, never going to happen no matter how popular the 2 strokes get again. They'll never fall into the trap of admitting their 4 stroke technology isn't up to par with 2 stroke technology a second time.
Which is a shame because I love my 06 CR250, more so than my 2010 250SX (which I also love). Yamaha, which still produces their 2 strokes does so completely half assed (no frame or engine updates since 2005 (and the engine updates back then were really nothing at all), no suspension updates since 2006 and no cosmetic updates (other than graphics) since 2002). KTM also half asses their 2 stroke lineup never standing behind their 250SX or 150SX beyond making them and providing small updates to their bikes, though they do support their off road lineup pretty well. If they truly were behind their 2 strokes they'd have sponsored riders out there racing them along side their current 4 strokes, but instead choose to push their 450 and 250Fs...
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honda is a silly company.. first they stop CR two strokes the most popular 2 stroke ever when they were being made! then they stop the hugely popular XR there biggest seller . there a smart company ??? ???
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I remember when the AMA wasn't what it is... but now it SUCKS!
I agree RiffRaff we need Duke Finch back. In the 90,s I went to the pro races, the post race parties, etc. Duke would be in the pits, long after the race hanging out with groups of regular folks, giving a privateer advice,etc. He even gave me the ama pro racing cap, off his head, just because I said Dukes the coolest, Dukes the toughest,etc. and he has the coolest cap. He was for the enthuiest racer, more grassroots, for the factory teams he was like a babysitter, they like to fight over parking spots,etc. It seemed liked he saw the factory teams as a minority, and the rest of the riders were more important.
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honda is a silly company.. first they stop CR two strokes the most popular 2 stroke ever when they were being made! then they stop the hugely popular XR there biggest seller . there a smart company ??? ???
They didn't kill their XR lineup, they just renamed it to fall in line with their competition 4 stroke lineup (CRF instead of XR is all).
And I do agree it is sad they killed their 2 stroke lineup, but at least they have been very forward with their views on 2 strokes and have gone that extra step to stand behind their decision 100% even if it is a very flawed stance. Other companies have kept their 2 strokes on life support only if to save face with their consumers, but I doubt they'll carry it on much longer regardless of the resurgence of the 2 stroke. They aren't keeping them alive because it's the right thing to do, or that they sell well (Yamaha only produces a very small amount of 2 strokes that they import here into the U.S, they sell out of them very quickly but how long do you think Yamaha will keep doing so when they are having problems moving their 4 strokes? Still quite a few YZ450 and 250F leftovers in dealers showrooms from 1-2 years ago on top of the "revolutionary" 2010 450F and 250F bikes that are still on show room floors unsold and heavily discounted). Doesn't say much for Yamaha and their mighty 4 strokes and I can see them dumping the 2 strokes to save face...
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I think it will be the "Invisible hand of the Economy" that will determine how the future of offroad motorcycles pan out. If enough consumers demand modern high performance two stroke dirtbikes, manufacturers will supply them. Evidence of this subtle but pronounced shift in buying habits are the new Husaberg two strokes, the bean counters at KTM didn't introduce them into the marketplace to lose money.
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Other companies have kept their 2 strokes on life support only if to save face with their consumers, but I doubt they'll carry it on much longer regardless of the resurgence of the 2 stroke. They aren't keeping them alive because it's the right thing to do, or that they sell well (Yamaha only produces a very small amount of 2 strokes that they import here into the U.S, they sell out of them very quickly but how long do you think Yamaha will keep doing so when they are having problems moving their 4 strokes? Still quite a few YZ450 and 250F leftovers in dealers showrooms from 1-2 years ago on top of the "revolutionary" 2010 450F and 250F bikes that are still on show room floors unsold and heavily discounted). Doesn't say much for Yamaha and their mighty 4 strokes and I can see them dumping the 2 strokes to save face...
I've always thought the reason they kept their 2-stroke line up was to"save face"and also what is Yamaha as well as the other Japanese companies going to do when us consumers don't want to buy anything from them but 2-strokes ?? I personally believe they will start to bring back the 2-strokes once they realize that's all the average consumer wants to buy!NOT to mention the 2-strokes are the only bikes moving off of the showroom floors & the "Big Four" are'nt moving any of their new 4=strokes like they expected to do.It's almost funny to some of us die hard smoker fans... ;D
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I agree, I think that at least Yamaha and KTM are going to shift more towards two-strokes here soon. Remember, aside for the weird voodoo shit that's going on at Honda, these companies aren't particularly out to push one technology or another. They're out to make money. And for a long time, that has gone hand-in-hand with the four-stroke takeover simply because of the rule shift and the public image of four-strokes being faster (all the pros ride them), better for the environment, and I've even heard some people think they're more reliable.
But, the hands of public opinion are changing as costs rise and budgets falls. The people are already voting with their wallets as we're seeing two-strokes selling out on the showrooms and going for top dollar in the second-hand market. In this environment, if a dirt bike company wants to make bank, two-stroke is going to be the way to go. In fact, judging by the dealership sales stories we've been hearing, it already is the way to go.
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Over the years I've been fascinated by the general lack of knowledge about Honda's anti 4t stance - a culture inculcated by Soichiro Honda himself (though their very first true MC, the A1 , I think, had a 2t engine ;D). Even many supposed Journalists seemed to miss Honda letting all and sundry know that they intended to cease all 2t production by 2007.
Honda have some very impressive engineering with regards to 2ts - at least what we know of - the range of patents they have applied to 2ts alone would boggle the mind, I would suspect. Perhaps the ARC patents have run out - as Eyvind Boyesens trapping valve KX250 mule engine is a rather close to the basic idea, even if the execution is very different. I really want to snaffle up a last year model of the CRM 250 AR, for my own collection of bikes, sooner, rather than later.
So, besides the owner / founders dislike of 2ts - which they had to put aside so they didn't miss out on the amazing dirt bike explosion in the 70s (Potential profitability / "money talks" is a powerful thing - perhaps even moreso nowadays), a great big marketing thing came along to assist 4ts - Environmental matters! (I'm not denigrating them , they are very important to our future).
Honda really joined in with the 'clean & green' thing - and, just like enviro activists / politicians and even the general public, it really easy to point to those 'dirty, smokey 2 strokes', and look like the good guys in getting rid of them. Too bad you don't have to add up the true costs of production and use of the 4t engines that have superseded the 2ts >:D .
You add in all the rules that favour 4ts in racing -double the capacity in MX2,1.8 :1 in MX1, WEC/EWC rules, Moto GP (through to banning outright, at least through the rules, of 2ts) and there go most of the 2ts.
Mind you, with Moto 2 , Aprilia are just as to blame as Honda's power and influence - by charging so much to lease a factory level 250 ( 1 million Euro? - they offered leasing at 1 Euro during 09 for blokes to use the 250 still in 010 - either that was them being facetious, or 250s were not allowed at all finally- I"m unsure on that last one), which you Had to have to have any hope of winning, they killed off the 250s just as much as Honda and the other companies. The same idiocy is going to lead to the disappearance of the 125s in GP racing....... As a side question - I don't see KTM trying to sell their neat little 125, just using it for the Red Bull cup racing - I've seen only 1 KTM listed in the GPs at times lately - by, perhaps, not selling the 125, KTM are tacitly letting the 2t in GPs die off.
We are in an age where you can go to a company, that makes a bicycle front wheel that is driven by a tiny DFI'd 2t engine in its hub, and the company loudly touts the cleanliness and fuel efficiency of the 2t over 4ts. Another company sells, and has retrofitted thousands of 2t commercial trikes / bikes in Asia with a DFI top end conversion for the existing 2ts out there.
As another fellow wrote above, perhaps it will be "the invisible hand of the economy" ( I truly believe that the only reason KTM has survived the last few years is the profitability of their 2t line, aided so much by the lack of major 2t production competition from other, large manufacturers) that gets 2ts back - even from Honda. They could 'save face' over their early anti 2t stance, by jumping back into them because of their new, 'even more clean and green' than a 4t standings, as modern 2ts are showing themselves to be. Especially if you add up all the costs of production , in both monetary and environmental terms.. But, I'm not about to hold my breathe on that one.
Bugger Honda, I say!
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Other companies have kept their 2 strokes on life support only if to save face with their consumers, but I doubt they'll carry it on much longer regardless of the resurgence of the 2 stroke. They aren't keeping them alive because it's the right thing to do, or that they sell well (Yamaha only produces a very small amount of 2 strokes that they import here into the U.S, they sell out of them very quickly but how long do you think Yamaha will keep doing so when they are having problems moving their 4 strokes? Still quite a few YZ450 and 250F leftovers in dealers showrooms from 1-2 years ago on top of the "revolutionary" 2010 450F and 250F bikes that are still on show room floors unsold and heavily discounted). Doesn't say much for Yamaha and their mighty 4 strokes and I can see them dumping the 2 strokes to save face...
I've always thought the reason they kept their 2-stroke line up was to"save face"and also what is Yamaha as well as the other Japanese companies going to do when us consumers don't want to buy anything from them but 2-strokes ?? I personally believe they will start to bring back the 2-strokes once they realize that's all the average consumer wants to buy!NOT to mention the 2-strokes are the only bikes moving off of the showroom floors & the "Big Four" are'nt moving any of their new 4=strokes like they expected to do.It's almost funny to some of us die hard smoker fans... ;D
You'd be surprised at Honda holding out on the 2 strokes even if others move in / profit where Honda once dominated in sales (KTM and Yamaha are doing it now). Honda will never make the same mistake in doing a 180 on their stance against the 2 strokes. They might do it through a shell company, but never through Honda directly.
Again, I really don't know why Yamaha even keeps the 125 or 250, they haven't improved the motors since at least 2001 and the cosmetics since 2002, the frame since 2005, and the suspension since 2006. The bike is far from perfect and motor improvements could really help it, same with a better frame geometry... I do know they sell out very quickly, but they don't import a lot to begin with compared to their 250Fs/450Fs. I'd really like to see where they go with the two strokes but I honestly don't see them producing them much longer. I'd love to be surprised though.
As for KTMs 2 strokes, well we'll see. They were quick to fight the 250 2 strokes racing in the pro class against the 250Fs, they aren't any more a friend of 2 strokes than Honda is, they're just business savvy and want to take advantage of the vacuum created by the other manufacturers pulling out (Suzuki, Kawasaki and Honda). They are in the same boat of the other manufacturers in having spent billions on development and advertising how technologically superior the 4 stroke is, in fact they just spent a ton of money developing a 350SXF that honestly is a dead end competitively (much like Honda's 150R), when they could have pushed out DI powered 2 strokes instead completely turning the industry on it's head...
Maico I think is about the only one who is behind the 2 stroke movement 100% but we can't even get the new ones imported yet. Time will tell though how the 2 stroke resurgence will impact racing. For me it'll be 2 stroke no matter what, but I would like to have a new 2 stroke with actual NEW R&D put into it, and actual improvements instead of lip service (KTM, Yamaha).
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We shouldn't forget BRP's contributions to clean, state of the art two stroke engine technologies through it's subsidiaries Ski Doo, Envinrude and Rotax. :D
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The two stroke markets are growing, not slowing down. That's the one and only reason for the new Husabergs. There is money to be made, and a substantial market has apparently demonstrated itself for the industry recently or else no company would have introduced a new bike into the market no matter what it says in that company's press clippings.
If there is ENOUGH money to be made, 2T Suzuki's and Kawasaki's will show up again, even if somewhat reluctantly. Hippie Honda will be at the table to gorge itself right along with the others, don't you worry about it. They've already stated that they will not ever produce a 2 stroke again, and they seem to want the world to think their board room resembles "Home Tree" from the Avatar movie, all packed with enlightened nature preserving blue semi-humanoids, but that kind of image thing never stands in the way of a corporation when there's money to be made. A new side door company just suddenly pops up to sell the product under a different flag. A big corporation like Honda is after all, just a two timin' double talkin' street hustler in a quick-change polyesther suit when you look at it's spiritual fibre, and even that is probably an opimistic estimate.
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Bu who cares really? Honda, KTM, BMW whatever... As long as one can buy a motorcycle that is good, who the hell cares if its got red plastics or blue ? I mean seriously? They're all made by people. Just buy a motorcycle that you like most, not the one which has the best commercial campaign and if you do that, the manufacturer doesn't really make a difference... I would have nothing against Honda if they started making two strokes, and I'm pretty sure they would be good ones too, and I would seriously consider buying one.
Therefore, I don't hate Honda, I could only say I don't like the direction which a few people are making this company take.
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The one thing that nobody can deny is that KTM is actually updating their 2-strokes with the 2011's having updated frames and the SX models now have a linkage suspension plus the XC's & XC-W's now have six speed transmissions as well as updated plastics.
TM is bringing a fuel injected 125cc 2-stroke out this year and Husaberg just brought the TE-250 & TE-300 two stroke out for 2011.!!
And we can't forget the new line of all 2-stroke Maico's that should be here in the U.S.A real soon that have been updated with a new carb,a new frame,new fuel tank,swingarm and subframe!
Two stroke bikes will continue to be around for a very,very long time because that's seems to be what the people not only want but what they enjoy riding and if the manufacturers ever quit making 2-stroke dirtbikes then I personally will NEVER BUY A NEW BIKE AGAIN !!! >:D
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Maicoman makes a very good point. No matter how much we complain about the good old days and four-strokes are doing blah-de-blah and the Big Five and the AMA and the new tracks and the Media and so on and so forth, things are turning around. We've seen more positive news for two-strokes in the last six months than in the previous five years, and it looks like this is just the tip of the ice-berg that will hopefully sink the four-stroke Titanic (which was actually a one-stroke, by the way.)
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As for KTMs 2 strokes, well we'll see. They were quick to fight the 250 2 strokes racing in the pro class against the 250Fs, they aren't any more a friend of 2 strokes than Honda is, they're just business savvy and want to take advantage of the vacuum created by the other manufacturers pulling out (Suzuki, Kawasaki and Honda). They are in the same boat of the other manufacturers in having spent billions on development and advertising how technologically superior the 4 stroke is, in fact they just spent a ton of money developing a 350SXF that honestly is a dead end competitively (much like Honda's 150R), when they could have pushed out DI powered 2 strokes instead completely turning the industry on it's head...
I have to strongly disagree when you say KTM were quick to fight the 250 2-strokes racing in the pro class against the 250f's & that they are'nt any more a friend of 2-strokes than Honda is.When KTM was looking into a direct injected 2-stroke they were going to use DI on the 250SX until the EVIL AMA changed the rules!Look on this site & you will find this quote: "The 250SX could have a bright future but it depends on what happens regarding the rules & regulations. KTM wants them to be introduced to MX-2 to allow teams that don't have millionaire budgets to compete against the 4-strokes.For the 2-stroke the injection is ready & this would provide a cleaner & more precise power delivery.So it's NOT KTM like alot of people think it's more likely due to the AMA,FIM and the economy in general,and I believe those reasons are also why Yamaha has'nt improved on their 2-strokes very much.But that's better than Honda! They don't have any 2-strokes on the market & probably never will again! ;D
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As for KTMs 2 strokes, well we'll see. They were quick to fight the 250 2 strokes racing in the pro class against the 250Fs, they aren't any more a friend of 2 strokes than Honda is, they're just business savvy and want to take advantage of the vacuum created by the other manufacturers pulling out (Suzuki, Kawasaki and Honda). They are in the same boat of the other manufacturers in having spent billions on development and advertising how technologically superior the 4 stroke is, in fact they just spent a ton of money developing a 350SXF that honestly is a dead end competitively (much like Honda's 150R), when they could have pushed out DI powered 2 strokes instead completely turning the industry on it's head...
I have to strongly disagree when you say KTM were quick to fight the 250 2-strokes racing in the pro class against the 250f's & that they are'nt any more a friend of 2-strokes than Honda is.When KTM was looking into a direct injected 2-stroke they were going to use DI on the 250SX until the EVIL AMA changed the rules!Look on this site & you will find this quote: "The 250SX could have a bright future but it depends on what happens regarding the rules & regulations. KTM wants them to be introduced to MX-2 to allow teams that don't have millionaire budgets to compete against the 4-strokes.For the 2-stroke the injection is ready & this would provide a cleaner & more precise power delivery.So it's NOT KTM like alot of people think it's more likely due to the AMA,FIM and the economy in general,and I believe those reasons are also why Yamaha has'nt improved on their 2-strokes very much.But that's better than Honda! They don't have any 2-strokes on the market & probably never will again! ;D
KTM is on the AMA board... Just like Honda, Yamaha, and Kawasaki. And yes, they were very quick to fight the introduction of equal CCs in the classes and threatened to pull their riders out of the series if the rule was passed.
Also, how did the AMA stop KTM from introducing DI? It's no different than the FI on the 4 strokes, and honestly the economy thing would have ruled out them introducing FI on their 250F and dumping a lot of R&D type implementations on their red headed stepchild of a brand Husaberg.
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What I meant about the AMA was'nt that they stopped KTM from making a DI 2-stroke I just believe that when the AMA would'nt let the 250 2 stroke race against the 250 4-stroke that KTM maybe thought that it would'nt be worth making the DI 2-stroke so they went ahead with making the 350F. :(
Trust me when I say that I really wish the powers that be would allow the 250 4-stroke to race the 250 2=stroke!And I knew that there is a KTM guy on the AMA board but I always heard that there is only one on the AMA board from KTM... :)
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Not sure that you guys really get the impact of what would happen if only one manufacturer would release a DI two-stroke... it would quickly become an orphan, similar to the CRF150 and unfortunately the KTM 350
The rules would change so fast that it would make your head spin.
No manufacturer wants to release a bike that will be choked off and killed before it has a chance to prove that it's viable.
As I've mentioned before there is much more to this then meets the eye.
The ONLY real way of changing this negative impact is to continue to support two-strokes and to help others see the benefits. Not by calling four-stroke fans names or being militant or by saying negative things about Honda. That line of thinking will put the entire movement into the fringes where it will be promptly ignored by anyone that has the power to change it.
If you think this is the wrong path to follow I'd love to hear constructive ideas.
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Not sure that you guys really get the impact of what would happen if only one manufacturer would release a DI two-stroke... it would quickly become an orphan, similar to the CRF150 and unfortunately the KTM 350
The rules would change so fast that it would make your head spin.
No manufacturer wants to release a bike that will be choked off and killed before it has a chance to prove that it's viable.
As I've mentioned before there is much more to this then meets the eye.
The ONLY real way of changing this negative impact is to continue to support two-strokes and to help others see the benefits. Not by calling four-stroke fans names or being militant or by saying negative things about Honda. That line of thinking will put the entire movement into the fringes where it will be promptly ignored by anyone that has the power to change it.
If you think this is the wrong path to follow I'd love to hear constructive ideas.
I agree that being militant about 2 strokes is a complete turn off to most people. One of the 1st things Jimmy Lewis mentioned to me was how he viewed twostrokemotocross.com as a fringe 2 stroke nut group, I was quick to point out it was no different than ThumperTalk and told him most people into the 2 stroke resurgence aren't hard-line anti-fourstroke nuts, me being one of them (I own and like both, but enjoy riding the 2 strokes). His biggest thing was how people were doing the whole 4 strokes only, 2 strokes only extremes and said if he could only have one bike it would be a 125 MXer, then we went off into conversation about the suspension changes they threw in on my little brothers test bike haha. (I think he was a bit surprised I didn't go off on the 2 strokes rule 4 jokes suck routine I'm sure he gets a lot of).
At any rate, I really don't see DI getting penalized if it's introduced. It's no different than FI on the 4 strokes, if anything it'd get others to jump in on the craze. The 150R/350SXF are niche bikes (one was pushed by Honda to kill off the 85cc class, the other by KTM to waste time and money lol), a DI bike is neither, it's just an improvement to an existing bike.
Also, as a side note... Heard some rumors of Suzuki bringing the two strokes back to the U.S (only issue right now is them having troubles with pre-selling them to dealers... Heard of a shop here in SoCal that has been pushing hard but Suzuki won't bring them in unless more pony up... Sad.)
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One of the 1st things Jimmy Lewis mentioned to me was how he viewed twostrokemotocross.com as a fringe 2 stroke nut group, I was quick to point out it was no different than ThumperTalk
So because a group of people exist who don't buy into the magazines and everyone else who is pro 4 stroke and against 2 strokes, WE would have to be the lunatic fringe?
Red Rider - Lunatic Fringe (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xp9852hq0W0#)
I've seen a lot of people who are militant about 4 strokes, people seem to think today that the default position is 4 strokes are better.
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Personally I've always felt that the all or nothing attitude that some hold is damaging to the cause as a whole.
It's the same for the other side.
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I disagree with you guys.. First.. If any manufacturers comes up with A DFI 2 stroke.. I would be the first one at the dealership dropping money for 2 of them! Bombardier did it..People showed with the money! You guys are thinking to deep!!!!! There is a huge market for 2 stroke..Why do you guys think that the Katooms and Yamis 2 stroke are so tough to find???????? But the manufacturers are determined to R&D and sell 4 stroke only..which is a piss off!!!!!!!! I hate the look, the sound, the weight, the powerband , power delievery, the racing......I totally lost interest into the sport. This is why I am here.. This is why I hate Honda mentality right now because they are a big influence in the sport.. the cr150f is a total joke. This bike is so wrong. The 85 cc develop skills, make a you better rider.. I hate going to the dealership and look at the over expensive grenades flooding the showrooms... I don't want a John Deer a want a true motocross bike. The sport is so lame..arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
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I agree that it is damaging to the cause however there are a few problems (actually, the pro-4 stroke isn't damaging to the other side since its currently the norm).
Now, I wouldn't care if they produced 4 strokes. However, I would never buy them. It would then be great if they made both 4 strokes and 2 strokes and you could choose.
There are several problems though:
1. Can they justify R&D for both 4 strokes and 2 strokes for the off road market? Off road racing? How high of a verticle is this market, what's the ceiling?
2. Once both bikes are out there, wouldn't one of them eventually outsell the other and the market itself would probably push one of them off. I won't speculate as to which one, but likely that would end up with only 1 winner in the end anyway. Unfortunately, this isn't why 4 strokes are currently here, they didn't win fairly in the market.
3. Isn't it true that different types of MX tracks benefit different bikes? So, could we have a mixed track or would we end up with 2 different nationals? Or is just keeping the current tracks and allowing 2 strokes of equal displacement enough?
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I agree that it is damaging to the cause however there are a few problems (actually, the pro-4 stroke isn't damaging to the other side since its currently the norm).
Now, I wouldn't care if they produced 4 strokes. However, I would never buy them. It would then be great if they made both 4 strokes and 2 strokes and you could choose.
There are several problems though:
1. Can they justify R&D for both 4 strokes and 2 strokes for the off road market? Off road racing? How high of a verticle is this market, what's the ceiling?
2. Once both bikes are out there, wouldn't one of them eventually outsell the other and the market itself would probably push one of them off. I won't speculate as to which one, but likely that would end up with only 1 winner in the end anyway. Unfortunately, this isn't why 4 strokes are currently here, they didn't win fairly in the market.
3. Isn't it true that different types of MX tracks benefit different bikes? So, could we have a mixed track or would we end up with 2 different nationals? Or is just keeping the current tracks and allowing 2 strokes of equal displacement enough?
1) Depends on the companies size. But realistically, with how much they have dumped into R&D for the 4 strokes it's doubtful many will do much to their current 2 stroke lineups beyond BNGs (Yamaha), or very minor tweaks (KTM). Though with DI already a reality in 2 strokes (some older SeaDoos had DI (99-2003?) thanks to Bombardier.
2) Of course, see number 1 for why they really won't push for many changes in the 2 stroke side of the house. Currently we have a situation that at best will provide us with the same bikes unchanged for hopefully a long time to come. With the current shift in the world economy (especially back here in the states) we might get to see a shift towards 2 strokes again but not ever at the level it used to be.
3) Yep. Glen Helen is a prime example, as is Racetown, Piru, Hangtown, Milestone, etc... All favor the 4 strokes to some degree, others more so (Glen Helen's shift to the GP style track destroyed it... it used to be pretty neutral in design but not favors the 4 stroke outright). But honestly, you can't blame the tracks too much. They design the tracks for their customers, which happen to be mostly 4 strokes right now. The best route is to go back to the way Glen Helen had their track setup before they sold out to the GP mantra of track design, really their old track was awesome for both 2 and 4 strokes. Everyone was happy.
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They have alot of technology they could bring to bear on the 4ts. Variable cam timing,variable intake runners ect ect. They can introduce this slowly over the next 5-8 yrs. Making these bikes faster and easier to ride.
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Finnaly after 100 hrs. of prep to the 06 CR125, that I bought from a farmer, he bought it new in march 09, 2,999.00. He rode thru cow pies and manure, that,s terrible on the frame,wheels,hubs,rubber,etc. I had to take the brakes apart, just about everything. He never had it apart, which is good, for the low hours, he brought it back to the honda dealer, because it fouled plugs, total dip stick. The dealer put a too lean of pilot in, needle clip- all stock, loosened the stock main jet. Anyway I hit the local track to day expecting a bunch of riders, and nobodies there. So my 1st ride of the year and I never saw the track washed out like this. It had numerous and very deep rain ruts on all the steep hills. I walked the track, then put my racing suit on. The cr125 chasis is incredible, I hit crooked rain ruts in 4 th gear pinned, which is stupid,but I wanted to keep a smooth flow, linking sections together. There was water standing in the clay corners,when I made my 1st outside line, the chasis makes it easy to keep hitting the line and you can make quick changes cutting in or out and in, the front wheel sticks. So it,s similar to the 04, chasis, corners like a champ, great stability, makes jumping easy, the magizines say it instills confidence, you want to keep pushing harder and you really trust the chasis, and that,s the key. Too bad honda don,t make the cr125 anymore.
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One of the 1st things Jimmy Lewis mentioned to me was how he viewed twostrokemotocross.com as a fringe 2 stroke nut group, I was quick to point out it was no different than ThumperTalk
So because a group of people exist who don't buy into the magazines and everyone else who is pro 4 stroke and against 2 strokes, WE would have to be the lunatic fringe?
Red Rider - Lunatic Fringe (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xp9852hq0W0#)
I've seen a lot of people who are militant about 4 strokes, people seem to think today that the default position is 4 strokes are better.
This is a great song from Red Rider & it's all for you Ford..... :-X :o :-\ ;D We're the LUNATIC FRINGE! That's what Jimmy Lewis says.But who here really cares what he says anyway?
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In the USA the green phrase is huge,every large corporation claims to be green. Example walmart when you hit there property-deliver, a large sign says no idling,a local law code on the sign, says there a partner with clean air,etc. There,s alot of procedures at walmart, all customers-shippers. You are not allowed to idle for heat or ac, no matter what the temp. over 100 or -10, peta has alot of power, if you have a pet in the truck you used to be able to idle, but if your 3 yr,old kids in the truck your not,well now you can,t idle,at all. The goverment put pressure on states to pass no idling laws, the fines are diff. in all the states, average fine 1,000 bucks, local cops go to truck stops and put the ticket on your truck,they know you can,t get back and fight it in court,easy revenue for towns. The funny thing is 08,09 trucks palute less than a car and 2010 trucks the exhaust is cleaner than the air you breath. I barrely touched on the clean air act, the bottom line is it cost more to ship products because the new trucks are so restricted they get worse fuel mpg,break down constantly, weigh more-haul less-need more trucks, and cost much more for the epa mandated engines, all these cost are figured in with the freight bill and the general public pays more for there goods. Obama passed a carbbtax, if your co. polutes it,s taxed, when that kicksin everything goes up, all goods shipped,enjoy the good times now. They could easily tax 2-st. riders, tax the companys that make the 2-st. oil,then they pass the fee to the buyer,and then it,s 35.00 per quart, sounds crazy but, that,s nothing comparred to the trucking industies hit.
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Red Rider - Lunatic Fringe (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xp9852hq0W0#)
Yuck,I hate Tom Cochrane.It's a long story that has to do with a chick in a bar from years ago in a place Red Ryder was playing-and I can't help but think of it whenever I hear his stuff :-X
As for Jimmy Lewis-who's Jimmy Lewis :P.He's certainly no Jody Weisel that's for damn sure :)
This is a great song from Red Rider & it's all for you Ford..... :-X :o :-\ ;D We're the LUNATIC FRINGE! That's what Jimmy Lewis says.But who here really cares what he says anyway?
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Jimmy Lewis is the editor of Dirt Rider magazine in which I've stupidly subscribed to that biased mag for about the past 28 years but as soon as my subscription runs out I'll start subscribing to MXA or maybe Dirt Bike because I've sent several letters to J. Lewis' mag & have never even got one of my many,many letters printed in that crappy magazine!!! ::)
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Yeah,I know who he is.Races desert and Paris Dakar once or twice I believe.I think Dirt Rider gets my short attention span award.More pics and less text every year-must be made to cater to the now illiterate generation :(
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Badmouthing Honda's not got to get you anywhere, except pissing people off who own Honda's, and who post on here, who own Honda two strokes.
I see these remarks about "HONDOO sucks", and I think thats pretty disrespectful to those who own Honda two strokes.
What kind of comments are those? You, a certain two guys, seem to be bringing this up with crude remarks a lot.
Say it once and be done with it. Nobody cares to hear you badmouth a brand like that over and over again?
Let economics rule and perhaps for your sakes Honda dirt bikes will discontinue.
I dont badmouth Maico or Yamaha. I dont know the history of Maico but I cant remeber when Maico won a main race here in the States or Europe recently?
My experience in trying to find a used two stroke Honda is that its very rare, that tells me that they hold their value, reliability and race well.
I see a great many yamaha's and ktm's all the time in the paper and on craigs list, etc., but I dont go bad mouthing those bikes by saying
"Gee, 12 yamaha's and 22 Ktm's on Craigs list, those brands suck".
A couple threads that mention Honda as sucks, have gone way down on the post list only to resurface/move back to the top by a couple guys on here with more
childish language.
"I love you guys" so lets just ride.
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I dont know the history of Maico but I cant remeber when Maico won a main race here in the States or Europe recently?
This is a little off-topic, but I guess I feel obligated to just say that that particular manufacturer has been on tight budgets since the times when the Earth was still part of a Nebula. The works bike you saw in the nationals one year was pretty much the bike you were buying in the shop the next; they just couldn't swing a dedicated works bike, or the big-time pro racers. If I can track down the article I'll maybe post it here, but there was an issue of Modern Cycle where Gaylon Mosier (Maico racer at that time) talks about what it was like, and it sounded like a Maico rider and a McDonald's burger-flipper would be roughly equal in terms of pay. Mosier, like Ake Jonsson and many others before him, eventually caved and went Japanese. The ultimate cause of this low budget, I think, was in manufacturing. Compared with the others, a Maico was much more "hand built," and all bullshit about craftsmanship and passion aside, being hand-built made for massive prices and sketchy QC (think about Honda and Lamborghini in cars, who wins more races?). So that's why they never won races - they weren't efficient enough to sell big numbers of bikes, and that meant they couldn't afford to invest enough big money to win the pro races. As for today, well of course they're not going to win in the US because they don't even approach the production quota, and I don't know what the situation is like in Europe so... yeah, I can't really say.
Sorry for going off the path of the thread there, but you said you don't know the history of Maico, so I thought I might as well.
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Thanks for the enlighting me Jetzer.
You know my comments werent ment for you.
I like the video about the new Maico. Maybe its because the bikes are red? :o
A person cant help but like a company that puts all their efforts behind a product and also stands fully behind it and also posts with the
public.
I got a few Questions: is it because its a european bike that the pipe is on the left side? Do they make a 125?
Reason why I bought a 125 is because I am getting old and I dont think I could handle a heaver bike. :o
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I had just assumed that you bought a Honda because you were getting old and couldn't handle a more powerful bike.
Hahahahahaha.Sorry,but given everything that's just transpired here,I really couldn't help myself :-[ ;)
Euros do sometimes have a tendency to put things on the opposite side from the usual.My Berg had a left kick,pipe on the left and a right drive.I'm not sure why though it was never an issue
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Ford,
Are you trying to confusesus me? I can only kick start a bike with the kicker on the right side, physically. :D
And for the record I am a whoping 44 years old !
I have always liked Honda because all my Honda's were very reliable and then I decided to buy a two stroke.
The years between my riding consistently and now are too many to mention. You guys need to handle this old timer
with kit gloves and now you guys are getting an idea about my riding history. :P
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TxTechRedRider - it's true, Honda has made outstanding 2 stroke motocross machines, and is the leader of the anti-2 stroke crusade. Since they no longer produce 2 strokes and have stepped up their anti-2 stroke rhetoric and deeds, it makes it easier to badmouth them.
But ALL RESPECT to those riders riding red.
Chris
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If you like 125's TxTech i have a deal for you. ;)
I have a mint condition 1973 TL125.
When i say mint, there is only a few things wrong with it.
1) Forks are shot
2) Shocks are shot
3)Fuel tank leaks
4)Throttle sticks
5)Brakes have never worked.
On the plus side.
It still has the original tyres
The chain was new in 1980
New grips in 85
It has a low seat hight for us old buggers
You shouldnt get into any trouble with the power delivery.
Let me know if you are interested. I can organise the freight. ;D
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44? Pbbffftttt, you're still a pup.I've got a year on you :o
Left side kick,though awkward at first,was better for me in the end because I have RM hip on my right side-so called because I was cornering deep sand one time with my leg out on my RM when I went down and popped that hip out.
Honda bashing comes naturally to me as my main riding buddy will generally ride nothing but-presently with a CRF450X with a Rekluse-more commonly referred to as "that POS lawntractor with the girlie clutch"
He's likely still working on the YZ but my two favorites of his when I had the Husaberg were "HusaTurd" and "LoserBerg" :D
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TMKIWI,
My attempt to be witty can be somewhat lacking at times and this is the time.
ok, well I dont quite understand your post as it has some spelling errors :D
I cant justify the purchase simply because we still, I own the XL175 I grew up on and yea thats a 4t. :o
Interesting enough is that this Honda 1972 xl 175 bike smaller and my 2007 Cr125 is larger.
But thanks for the offer. Is the TL a honda? :o
A lower seat, well thats just blasfamy. :o I guess you are suggesting I am loosing bone mass.
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Thanks Chris2t for the remarks.
Ford, dont give me any ammunition. Yea, one of my riding buddies gives me a seriosly hard time about searching out a honda 2t and not buying a honda 4t.
Really, I think us Honda riders including RidRedMx2 are stand up guys and my communicating with him on a limited time span recently, because we are Red Rider brothers, has made me respect his comments and points of view, as would I of other brands as well.
I am not trying to defend him here as he is an experienced rider and has stated his position clearly and perhaps I can attempt to relate our
thoughts to yous guys.
As John said and forgive me for I may deviate slightly from his true meaning somewhat, as he state earlier, and in a Honda 2t riders perspective nothing hurts worse than your brand seemingly hanging a diehard rider/purchaser of their product out in no mans land by halting 2t production like Honda has.
I know yous guys can see our situation so...it hurts like hell to have all these 4t bikes and great riders riding what I consider the wrong bike and even not winning.
Todd
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TxTech.
Yep i have had the bike since 76. :o
And yes it is a Honda. :o
Went from QA50 to TL125 To CR80.
Didnt have the 80 for long cause mum reackond it was too fast. ??? Still not talking to her ;)
Enjoy your Honda while you still can get parts for it.
Or just buy a TM which is a CR copy. :)