Two Stroke Motocross
Two Stroke Motocross Forum => General Two Stroke Talk => Topic started by: burn1986 on August 05, 2010, 10:42:51 PM
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Okay, if you had unlimited money to spend on a bike, what would it be and what would you do to it?
Well, First off I would totally restore an '86 CR125 to its original factory condition. Second, I would get a 2003 CR125 and put a 144 kit in it. I would have MaxRPMs make it a stroker and put a different ignition on it. Obviously, have the suspension done. It would probably be very similar to the one in the August issue of Dirt Bike.
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Fuel and oil injected KTM 150 or YZ 150 8)
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Think big -
One Factory Pro Circuit KX 125 and one Factory Pro Circuit KX 250 thanks Mr Payton !!!!!!!!!
Ultimate !!!!!!!!!!!
:D
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GYTR Yz144!
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Well, finish restoring all my Maicos to everything top dollar. Then get a 89 KTM 500 and restore it and then get a new Maico 380, 500 and 700 :)
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Ron Lechien's 1985 Factory Honda RC 250.
Alloy framed, liquid cooled, YZM 500.
Come to think of it any works bike made would be cool :D
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I'm easy my current ride 2010 KTM 250SX ;D
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1978 Maico 440 Magnum, with a '77 tank and no number plates. I hope to have this bike in my possession within the decade, although it may wind up being a 400. With unlimited funds I'd probably add some newer wheels (Maico wheels were pretty decent by '78 but I'm sure an Excel rim would be better) and maybe a front disc brake. Definitely the full MicroBlue treatment, too! Lots of riders put modern bars on their old bikes, I would not, simply because it's not what I'm used to.
For the street, I'd probably take a street-legal 1980 Husky 390 with a very fat set of gears for comfortable freeway cruising, and the motor completely tuned by whoever happens to be the world's greatest two-stroke-tuning-guru at the moment for maximum low-end. The reason being, of course, that if you're going to keep the motor cruising easily at low revs, it'd be nice to have a million pounds of torque down there, and to deal with tall gears in slower off-road situations. The reason I choose a 390 and not a 430 or 500 (the 430 having more low-end and the 500 having more everything) is because I have a sentimental attachment to the 390. There's really not much more to say.
And, while we're at it, I might as well have a ball-breaker. I think the best solution for that would be a 501 Maico set up to achieve the absolute best 0-60 time on dirt that's humanly possible. In other words, a dirt-going, two-stroke, top-fuel drag bike, complete with a massive supercharger and miniature knob tires on the wheelie bar! The sound of nitromethane and a straight stinger would be awesome to behold. Occasionally, I might take the wheelie bar off and give it to some fearless idiot for a gravel rally, Group-B style.
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Think big -
One Factory Pro Circuit KX 125 and one Factory Pro Circuit KX 250 thanks Mr Payton !!!!!!!!!
Ultimate !!!!!!!!!!!
:D
A SplitFire KX125 would definitely be in the garage. I loved those bikes.
I doubt I'd have too many exotic bikes, but would definitely have a huge tract of land to ride on right from home, with an MX track too.
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late model rm125/250 chassis with a properly tuned and microblued ktm 380 engine. ;D
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late model rm125/250 chassis with a properly tuned and microblued ktm 380 engine. ;D
LAst model RM 250.. All moded out by Bill's pipe.. their Suzuki engines are just nuts!!! with an exotic factory suspensions setup.
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LOL, a CR250R that comes out in late December, 2012... ;D
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I would want a yz450f. :P Na im just kidding. I would want james stewarts yz250 that he rode at his ride day in texas. That bike was sick.
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I would spend up big on my 05 to start with, get it HRC factory spec, then i would get a rolling 2010 CRF 250 chassis and fit a CR 500 engine and have mega bucks spent on the suspension.
And a sweet original stock KTM 380sx.............. With kick arse suspension aswell.. :D
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That,s a easy 1 my 04 cr125, 250f killer, 2mm overbore,2mm stroker crank,40mm carb,etc. Hits hard in the lower mid, then sounds like your punching a cat, haha pulling real hard to a screaming topend.
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Who did the work on this? Do you run pump or or race gas? What displacement is it? Does Stroker crank really make that much more difference?
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Unlimited money? It would have to be an ATK 700 Intimidator, i've never been on a dirtbike that would deliver the kind of thrust that i assume that thing would deliver. Since there's no budget i'd probably send it to Eric Gorr to have him work his magic on it, can never have too much horsepower :P :P :P
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ATK 700 Intimidator
Why not get the Maico 700? The engine is the same and if you saw the latest Maico International news the 2011 will have 20 more HP.
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ATK 700 Intimidator
Why not get the Maico 700? The engine is the same and if you saw the latest Maico International news the 2011 will have 20 more HP.
you're absolutely right, for some reason i was thinking the Maico stopped at the 620. Maico 700 it is!!
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Favorite that I have actually riden - My 2010 YZ250
Dream Bike - 2010 Service Honda CR250AFX with Showa A Kit. Great engine Great Chassis and best of all California green sticker.
I think I just talked myself into a new bike...
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for me that got to be the kx 125 1988 that i owned
that had a nice power band
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Nice, how long was it? I got a purple one that stretched to 40.
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I'd get a 2011 Maico 500mmx with a 18" on the rear & a set of Fasst Flex bars with a GPR steering stablizer.My next bike would be a 2010 KTM-250sx with a 300 kit moded by Dicks Racing. :o
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First off, its gotta be something which will blow away any 4stroke I might meet off-road, even if it was a totally hopped up thumper. I mean on the straights and long fireroads, through the gears and top speed so it has to have the power to be up-geared and still out-accelerate any off-road thumper you can name. (Within reason, I'm not talking about it being able to beat some custom bike with a Hayabusa engine stuffed into a dirtbike frame and supercharged, lol).
First choice would probably be the Maico 700, although, I'd be a bit skittish as I've never seen an actual test on the thing compared to anything else. 2nd choice would be a '95 or '96 KTM 550 heavily modified by someone like Dick's Racing, who know how to squeeze every drop of hp and torque out of the motor. 3rd choice would be a KX500 with pretty much the same type of mods made to it as has been done to the Project 250 YZ, Micro Blued and what not. 4th Choice would be an '83 Maico Sand Spider with up to date suspension. Why not all of them, dreaming is free, lol. Throw in a KTM or Gas Gas 300 enduro for all-around work and maybe a good 300 trials bike as well, but only after I had at least one of the big boys mentioned above for my high-speed desert riding and sand-hill climbing obsessions.
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One of these:
(http://www.themotorreport.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/suzuki-rmz250-05-thumb.jpg)
With this motor stuffed in it:
(http://www.absmotorcycles.com.au/resources/image_server.php/88.jpeg)
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Yeah, the RM is sweet for sure. I would have to admit that I would simply have to have the MMX 700. It's just too sweet. If anything, to have the motor. It would be incredible to ride on a long mx track like Glen Helen, or Millville.
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Engine swaps seem to be popular, but the engine swap I had in mind wasn't actually a bike. I dream of someday making the ultimate car that will piss off absolutely everybody. I'll take a 2nd Generation Prius, and remove all the back seats and such. Then, I'll take a hopped-up 426 Hemi, blown and set up as a really mean drag motor, and set that right in the middle of the Prius, with straight headers coming out through holes in the rear doors, and the supercharger sticking out the roof for intake. Then I'll put some massive drag slicks on it, and just generally turn that thing into a 1/4-mile monster.
I call it, the Judas Prius! Hippies will hate it because their beloved Prius is now getting 10 gallons to the mile. The drag race crowd will hate it because their beloved 454 Chevelle just got axed by a Prius. It's perfect!
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Its genius!
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Haha, Judas prius... nice
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A 350cc Direct Injected motor put into the trickest Chrome Moly frame with Ohlins suspension & billet everything.
What brand ?. Who ever makes one first ;D
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I like your idea TMKIWI but I also like Jetz idea with the Judas Prius...! :) :D ;D :o
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There was a guy i used to know who put a all alloy 302 chev into a mini with 4 wheel drive.
The motor was mid mounted and had 500hp on the dyno. >:D
I remember seeing him drive it around town doing burnouts.
The thing couldnt stay in a straight line, just wanted to spin out all the time. :P
Too short a wheel base.
Any way not sure what has happened to Mike, i have been out of the racing scene for a few years now.
P.S Yes it was road legal. ;D
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Engine swaps seem to be popular, but the engine swap I had in mind wasn't actually a bike. I dream of someday making the ultimate car that will piss off absolutely everybody. I'll take a 2nd Generation Prius, and remove all the back seats and such. Then, I'll take a hopped-up 426 Hemi, blown and set up as a really mean drag motor, and set that right in the middle of the Prius, with straight headers coming out through holes in the rear doors, and the supercharger sticking out the roof for intake. Then I'll put some massive drag slicks on it, and just generally turn that thing into a 1/4-mile monster.
I call it, the Judas Prius! Hippies will hate it because their beloved Prius is now getting 10 gallons to the mile. The drag race crowd will hate it because their beloved 454 Chevelle just got axed by a Prius. It's perfect!
LOL Jetz.. It is like pulling a trailer with a Ferrari!
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What's the point of having 500 horsepower if it can't even get two '80s Huskies over Mt. Hood? And wouldn't it be bad-ass to show up at a motocross race in a Lamborghini Gallardo?
By the way, here's an interesting thing. I decided to look up "Lamborghini" one day on Craigslist and found three for sale in the Portland area. Then I looked up "Maico" and there were zero. Looks like one is more exclusive than the other! :P
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Mine........well,not mine,but wish it was mine.... ;D
http://www.mcnews.com.au/Features/2003/Manx_Norton/LHS_1024.jpg (http://www.mcnews.com.au/Features/2003/Manx_Norton/LHS_1024.jpg)
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By the way, here's an interesting thing. I decided to look up "Lamborghini" one day on Craigslist
Anyone who owns a nice car, especially a low profile car like a Lamborghini, in Portland is an idiot (same with anyone owning a convertible). Those cars are for areas where you have more constant weather and the area is flat. Nice weather or the car will just be ruined in the winter.
When I lived in Miami, I walked out of a dive bar before and saw a yellow lamb. parked in front. Lots of nice cars down there. Same with boats tho, owning a boat up in the PNW seems ridiculous to me, the water is freezing!
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Who did the work on this? Do you run pump or or race gas? What displacement is it? Does Stroker crank really make that much more difference? JM racing , I run 110 leaded, if the fuel is 1 week old you have to dump it, 144 or 151cc the engine builder is at Lorreta Lynns right now, so I have to wait till he back in Tx.,it,s only 7cc difference,doesn,t really matter. The stroker crank carries the power further,than a over bore,the crank is only 1mm up and 1mm down, there,s alot more compression braking, than a stock bore ported motor. It,s alot quicker than a KTM 2011 150 with a fmf pipe, the cr mod. motor hits very hard and sharp in the lower mid then pulls all the way to a sreaming top end. The cr motor is a big am. national motor, for races like L.L., the engine builder said it,s a racing engine built for racing, so you can,t put big hours on the piston.
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Mine........well,not mine,but wish it was mine.... ;D
http://www.mcnews.com.au/Features/2003/Manx_Norton/LHS_1024.jpg (http://www.mcnews.com.au/Features/2003/Manx_Norton/LHS_1024.jpg)
really nice! Look the old school triumph and Indian for some reasons..
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I,m including my 06 CR125 also, stock except for a PC silencer and a Rad Valve which I took apart and polished the internals, stock gearing, 110 leaded fuel, and an icat they work on the CR125 pretty good. I hit the closest local track today,because of servere storms in the area. My mod bike would over power the track hard pack with loose powder on top, steep hils with deep rain ruts. The 06 CR125 is fun to ride, the rad valve and icat, make it run better, snappier,2nd gear corners it carries the front wheel, ,seatbounce a little hill, in the air click 3RD pin it wide open, just touch ground and there,s a step up. There was no bikes on the track,everyone says it,s to full of rain ruts,I really like the 06 fun, handling is awesome, very reliable,etc. I forgot I put stiffer fork and shock springs in, added a couple seringes of oil in the forks,and polished the cartridge rod. On lap 2 my back popped off a small double,still laying on ice. A servere storm came threw 100 ft. trees where bent over, I grabbed my bike and got it next to my van, next I was ready to run to the equipment for cover, I thought my G-20 Chevy van was going over. A twister took a friends house down and the old school house that the track owned down.
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I don't know what Portland's streets are like where you are, Opferman, but I would have no problems with a Lambo as long as there was a garage to put it in. Might not be able to pull into some of the steeper McDonald's entrances, but if you've got a Lambo in the drive-thru instead of on the scenic roads in the gorge, you'd deserve to pay $30,000 for a new bumper.
As far as convertibles and boats, they still have their place here. I spent most of my day today on my uncle's boat (with a 302 Ford motor, by the way) and it was very relaxing to cruise along the Willamette, gently listing port and starboard, and listening to the V-8 rumbling about four inches from my rib cage. Yes the water was cold, and that's why I wasn't in it. :) With that said, though, I couldn't see myself going boating more than once or twice a year, and dirt bikes are not only much easier to do year-round, but I think it's much more fun and certainly cheaper. But I wouldn't mind a two-stroke jet-ski maybe someday, just for when we get one of those damn 105 degree days and the bike's got a blown shock or whatever.[/offtopic]
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Engine swaps seem to be popular, but the engine swap I had in mind wasn't actually a bike. I dream of someday making the ultimate car that will piss off absolutely everybody. I'll take a 2nd Generation Prius, and remove all the back seats and such. Then, I'll take a hopped-up 426 Hemi, blown and set up as a really mean drag motor, and set that right in the middle of the Prius, with straight headers coming out through holes in the rear doors, and the supercharger sticking out the roof for intake. Then I'll put some massive drag slicks on it, and just generally turn that thing into a 1/4-mile monster.
I call it, the Judas Prius! Hippies will hate it because their beloved Prius is now getting 10 gallons to the mile. The drag race crowd will hate it because their beloved 454 Chevelle just got axed by a Prius. It's perfect!
Now that is funny!!! :D
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LOL, a CR250R that comes out in late December, 2012... ;D
Unfortunately we will never see that.A shame as i really love Honda's build quality.
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(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x34/walteretlaw/net/ktm250gp.jpg) One of these please.
I'd like a service honda 500, but I reckon I'd be about 58 feet down the road before I wadded myself up into a ball. Probably on fire.
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A 500 isn't scary unless you ride it like a bone-head. Just recognize that it's not a 125 and needs a smoother throttle hand, and you'll be fine (and fast). When you get into big-power territory, the throttle is no longer an on/off device. Even the big hard-core 500cc pros on their works bikes of yesteryear, would seldom if ever actually put the balls to the walls during a moto.
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A 500 isn't scary unless you ride it like a bone-head.
I didn't realize you had experience with a CR500AF. Give us a report... ;D
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Probably my dream bike would be a TM144 with a microblue coating and full RG3 suspension service.
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I've had two CR500s - an 87 and a 94. The 87 felt like a tank when you rode it, but I actually liked it slightly better than the 94. The suspension seemed better. Once you get these bikes on the track, you get used to them. It's just sometimes you don't know exactly where you're going to land when you gas it on a jump.
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The 87 felt like a tank when you rode it
I have an 86 & I know exactly what you mean there. I also have an 86 Maico 500, that thing feels like a piece of paper, very light and easy to turn and lean.
I guess that's why Guus Mulders says the 86 is one of the best handling frames. He makes a hybrid bike. 1986 Frame modified to a Twin Shock, the 86 frame can take the new motors so he puts a 2003 bottom end for hydrolic clutch, then he puts a 1983 air cooled top end on. Ultimate vintage weapon I guess, depending on the legality of it.
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I've seen it on Ebay from time to time. The late Jim McCabe sent me several photos of it he saved back in 2008 when I was considering what it might take to modify my 82 into an 81 frame.
(http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/1493/hybridmaico.png)
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Man, if you just flat-out want to win...
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WOW,now that would make a nice vintage race bike!
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A 500 isn't scary unless you ride it like a bone-head.
I didn't realize you had experience with a CR500AF. Give us a report... ;D
You're in the wrong generation Coop.Drop back to the air cooled versions that Jetz likes.Back in those days,bikes like the RM 500 were running an honest 40hp-about the same as a modern day KTM150.Certainly much easier to hang on to than a service Honda I expect. :)
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Looks like a honda front fender on the maico.
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An honest 40hp? That's about what a 250 made in the '80s, try 55-60 for big-bores.. Regardless, there's a right way to ride every bike, and if it's ridden right, it won't kill you. Will things get out of hand if you ride the thing like a 125? Of course they will (and that's true with the air-cooled dinosaur engines, too). If "don't be stupid and ride this flat-out" applies to a big smoothie like a 490, then you can bet your ass it'll apply to an axe-murdering beast like a CR500.
When you guys want to bring up the old bike vs new bike thing yet again next time (you might notice I haven't been starting it), then this might help. Instead of thinking Model-T, think Shelby Cobra.
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From the September 1983 issue of Cycle magazine that I'm now holding in my grubby paw with their test of the "new" RM500D......
"Certainly,if you whack the throttle open in conditions where traction is at a premium(hard packed and dry or really muddy)
,the RM,like any 40 horsepower two stroke,can be a handful........Against it's main competition the RM does well.Honda's superb CR480R barely edges the RM in suspension performance and turning ability,and has just a tad better power.Yamaha's YZ490K,a big improvement over recent YZ's,falls short against the CR and RM on tight tracks."
Now I fully realize that Kevin Cameron and the then staff at Cycle don't know anything and that an old air cooled 500 has as much or more power than it's more modern LC power valved (KX anyway) counterpart but still, oh,ok, I take it all back-you're right :P
Oops,sorry,I forgot one thing: I'm not thinking AC Cobra-or model T.I'm thinking Edsel. :D
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Here's a better one-but I realize that's all wrong as well ::) ........
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBQQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.e-dirt.co.za%2Fforum%2Fforum_posts.asp%3FTID%3D24196&rct=j&q=1983%20RM500%20horsepower%20figures&ei=MmRkTILGEYWglAfN0fTuDA&usg=AFQjCNEssPRjC5gVZVRg8kdup2I1gjPe8g&sig2=kfczTr2wDHvh2ax_LhTuSw&cad=rja (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBQQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.e-dirt.co.za%2Fforum%2Fforum_posts.asp%3FTID%3D24196&rct=j&q=1983%20RM500%20horsepower%20figures&ei=MmRkTILGEYWglAfN0fTuDA&usg=AFQjCNEssPRjC5gVZVRg8kdup2I1gjPe8g&sig2=kfczTr2wDHvh2ax_LhTuSw&cad=rja)
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I think it comes down to the fickle nature of dyno readings. I've seen numbers like that, but like I said before, I've also seen magazines claim low-40s for a 250, and as high as 56 for a 490. I've also seen numbers that should indicate that a YZ426F has ten horses over a 430 Husky. Problem is, I read this after seeing a 430 Husky walking all over a YZF in drag races, including standing and rolling starts. Even the numbers you posted indicate that the '83 490 and 495 should be some of the slowest-accelerating bikes in that class, yet these are the ones with the greatest reputation for power. And, someone on here told the story some time ago of a CR250 one year that dominated everyone on paper in the dyno pulls, but had about as much power as a plastic bag when it got on the track. I'm inclined to believe that there's no such thing as an "honest" 40hp, because there's not really an "honest" reading at all for off-road bikes.
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I think it comes down to the fickle nature of dyno readings. I've seen numbers like that, but like I said before, I've also seen magazines claim low-40s for a 250, and as high as 56 for a 490.
Link please?
These are industry accepted rear wheel hp figures for that time-not crank or brochure figures.While dynos do vary somewhat,500 figures wouldn't be printed in a mag for a 250 of that era as it would be obvious something was wrong with said dyno.
As for which bike will outrun which due to gearing,hook,suspension or whatever-that has no bearing on dyno hp figures-which is what we are talking here-are we not? ??? :)
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The new day dyno reports are to help bolster the the 'Big' power of the 4-strokes. The same KX500 that dynoed at 48.8 was dynoed again a few years back and put out over 62HP. It's all hype. My 99 CR250 is no faster anywhere than my 89 CR, but it's supposed to have about 7 HP more than the 89, so the magazine tests say.
It's all hype to help sell the 4strokes to the public who will argue on end about HP figures, all the while being passed by a ten year old kid riding a KX85.
I wouldn't judge any of the older bikes with 30 year old write-ups from magazines known to bow to the almighty dollar, either. This has been going on with magazine tests since the early 70's when the big 'dirt bike boom' hit the US.
I am constantly riding new and old MX bikes and some great bikes never won over the public because of a stupid magazine test.
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I have this article from 1983 that has Dyno Tests for 8 500 Class MX bikes.
http://www.maicowerk.com/Articles/PDF/1983_500_MX_shootout.pdf (http://www.maicowerk.com/Articles/PDF/1983_500_MX_shootout.pdf)
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The same KX500 that dynoed at 48.8 was dynoed again a few years back and put out over 62HP. It's all hype.
Ya, there are several methods of measuring, I have heard from someone who does dynos that he's never seen a bike go above 50 on a dyno.
I will try to find that email.
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Here is a snipet of the email, there is much more. But like I said, no bike has made 50 HP according to this guy, not even the new 250s.
If you subtraced 10 hp or 02% you would be in the ball park. I owna dyno and have run hundrecs of moto bikes over the years and NONE are even close to those numbers. My dyno is calibrated to +-2%. If you have a duno chart with calibration data I would love to see it. I posted a pretty complete chart thru 1980 and workin g on new stuff. The last KTM 250 we ran made 43 or 44hp. You are correct the KTM is very strong on the dyno, one of the best, but not 50hp.
--- On Fri, 1/2/09, wrote:
Date: Friday, January 2, 2009, 3:25 PM
The CR, KX and MX all made a bit over 60HP on a dyno. I recall
the KTM having the most at around 64 or something.
The KTM 250 where the first 250 to break the 50 HP barrier
a few years back on the dyno for the DirtBike magazine.
They all make between 47-50 HP. I'd guess that the Maico 500
is right in there somewhere. 60+ something like any
1987 500cc.
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Here is some more of it, and I'm not either guy in this email (but I started this thread actually). I should ask if he has dyno information on the newer 250s he can provide.
Well
Here all I can tell you is that you can make a dyno chart read anything you want and if it makes you fell better thinking that a 250 makes the same or more power than a 450, so be it. Even though there is no way ANY 250 can Begin to compete with a 450, and on the same note if you want to believe the ads that some moto bikes are making 60 plus HP that's fine. If the KTM 500 was so great why did they stop making it! Just think of they money they could have saved in development costs and they would still rule the motocross world today. I'm telling you I have spent 10's of thousands of dollars on an engineering degree, a dyno, a shop so that I can actually test engine development. And the claims all manufactures make are simply over stated, period. I don't care to discuss this any further. I will post, my complete house power chart developed over the last 25 years by my father, Mr Donahue and myself. If you find the info helpful that's great, that's why I did it. If not that's OK also. On a side note Rodger Decoster told me at dealer meeting once that the best lap times are done a bike with 30 to 35 hp and nice wide power band, now that was 10 years ago and maybe with better suspension that number would be slightly higher. But if you think there is any advantage for the average guy having 60 hp, I know a 9 years old that has less than 20hp in his ride that will change your mind. Again if any of you have dyno charts from a CALIBRATED dyno I would be glad to include that info in my spread sheet.
--- On Sat, 1/3/09 wrote:
Increase
Date: Saturday, January 3, 2009, 1:44 PM
Well, can't do much except pointing you towards the
motocrossactionmag. com then. It was the KTM 250 SX yearmodel 2002
stock that produced 49 dot something on the dyno during quite a hot
day and it was obvious that it would have broken the 50 HP if the air
temp would have been anything but tropical that day. I can't recall
any rear wheel dyno figures published in any magazine from 2002 and
later with any of the 250:s producing such low figures as you claim.
Normally they are all right there around 47 HP:s.
2005 dyno chart:
http://image (http://image). dirtrider. com/f/8958723/ 141_0509_ 250shoot_ 18_z.gif
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BTW, since this is offtopic, should this be split into a Dyno thread?
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The best dyno is seat of the pants and lap times.jmho Ok back on topic.
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The best dyno is seat of the pants and lap times.jmho Ok back on topic.
I think that would be a good idea.
Anyone with some figures, put them up.
All bikes. Old & New
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The best dyno is seat of the pants and lap times.jmho Ok back on topic.
I definetly agree with that offroader! And I never agree with the dealer brochures.
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I was going to dyno my service honda after my next topend. I guess it would be a waste of money, the numbers don't seem to mean anything.
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I remember back in those days, Cycle Guide always had weird dyno numbers. They were always lower than the other magazines. In those days I only trusted the dyno tests done on the Webco dyno. Even the Webco dynos seem to give much lower figure than the modern dynos do, however. Need to test each bike on the same kind of dyno under the same approximate conditions, to get an accurate gauge of how they stack up against each other. As I said, in those days, I only trusted the Webco figures. Whatever Cycle Guide used, I don't know, but I ignored their figures and just read the tests. On the Webco dynos, the '84 & '85 Honda CR500s for instance, put out just a hair under 50 hp. These new dynos have the KTM 250 putting out that much. Get real, those old CR 500s would run off and leave a KTM 250 in any drag race, or super steep, sandy, hill climb which would bog a 250, and they would do it easily. They would do the same with any modern 450 4stroke as well. If you're gonna use dyno figures, need to make sure each machine is tested on the same dyno. The KTM 250 is nowhere near as powerful as an old CR 500, or Maico 490. Let's get real. Shoot, I'd bet money my old '82 IT 465 enduro would smoke any "stock" modern 250 through the gears, and it was no match for the CR 500s where traction was available. Just the suggestion that due to the dyno figures, a modern KTM 250 is anywhere near as powerful as an early '80s CR 500 is laughable. I mean no insult here, pound for pound, or rather, cc per cc, the KTM is a far superior bike, but it has nowhere near the power of those old CRs, nor do the 4stroke 450s.
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What people forget in the horsepower "Debate" is TORQUE.
That determines acceleration. Not horsepower.
A 500 smoker has way more torque then a 250 regardless of what the quoted "horsepower" is. ;D
The modern 250's have about 29ft/lbs of torque. Just a couple below a 450F.
Not sure what an old CR500 has but, it would be a hell of alot more.
I wish manufactors published torque figure instead of horsepower figures.
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Alright,alright,enough already,I give up.Old bikes are just a fast as new ones,dynos are nothing but a hokey sales tool invented by manufacturers to sell their machinery,a 3.8l chev engine is every bit a fast as a 3.8l F1 engine,etc,etc.
On a side note,I wanted to put my meter on a car today,then the scanner as well but as I knew for a fact that any info would be inaccurate,I just did a "laying of hands",a "mind meld" and got a good "feel" for what I thought might be wrong with it-and then went with my gut instinct.Yeah,baby,now we're getting somewhere. :o
Glenn C- When you are ready to do your top end get it dyno'd.Then run it through a few heat cycles and break it in and get it dyno'd again and post your results.I'd be interested-and fully believe your figures-as should anyone sensible.
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Glenn C- When you are ready to do your top end get it dyno'd.Then run it through a few heat cycles and break it in and get it dyno'd again and post your results.I'd be interested-and fully believe your figures-as should anyone sensible.
As long as they are way under a new KTM or YZ 250's figures :)
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Glenn C- When you are ready to do your top end get it dyno'd.Then run it through a few heat cycles and break it in and get it dyno'd again and post your results.I'd be interested-and fully believe your figures-as should anyone sensible.
As long as they are way under a new KTM or YZ 250's figures :)
Agreed as I know my YZ makes an honest seat of the pants 60 hp. :D
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Agreed as I know my YZ makes an honest seat of the pants 60 hp. :D
Hahaha...but an '85 CR500 will still smoke ya! ;D
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D'oh :(
Hey,wait.What if I was to run the old YZ on Jetz's Maico Dyno? :D ;)
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What people forget in the horsepower "Debate" is TORQUE.
That determines acceleration. Not horsepower.
A 500 smoker has way more torque then a 250 regardless of what the quoted "horsepower" is. ;D
The modern 250's have about 29ft/lbs of torque. Just a couple below a 450F.
Not sure what an old CR500 has but, it would be a hell of alot more.
I wish manufactors published torque figure instead of horsepower figures.
I agree with that and say it often.Just ask John. ;D A dyno is a great tool for getting an idea of what some of the difference is when making changes pipes,porting etc. but it certainly is not the be all to end all.If you have two cylinders and one makes 50hp on the dyno and one makes 55hp on the dyno but the rider is more comfortable and turns better lap times on the bike with 50 hp should he still use the cylinder that produces 55hp on the dyno?
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D'oh :(
Hey,wait.What if I was to run the old YZ on Jetz's Maico Dyno? :D ;)
Well if it says Maico, you know it's superior to anything else and will make your bike faster just from being in its presence... :P
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D'oh :(
Hey,wait.What if I was to run the old YZ on Jetz's Maico Dyno? :D ;)
Well if it says Maico, you know it's superior to anything else and will make your bike faster just from being in its presence... :P
;D ;D ;D
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I was reading a really, really, REALLY old dirt bike test the other day, and they happened to include a quarter-mile time, as well as a 0-60 time in that. I think that's just about the best way to figure out how the bikes do engine-wise. Dynos are great for finding what modifications do to a bike, but unless ALL the variables are held constant in ALL situations, they fall short for comparative data. Seat-of-the-pants is perfect for deciding what you're comfortable with, but it can be deceptive in terms of pure winning. For example, in the first issue of Dirt Bike, they tested three European 250s, and Super Hunky found that one of them felt much slower than the others, but still posted lap times three to five seconds a lap faster. I'm going to leave it open to the imagination which bike that was in this CZ - Maico - Husky test.
But, when you want to win, the clock is ultimately the one who decides the winner, so I think it should be the tool we use to figure bikes out. Get lap times, obviously, but instead of talking about which bike felt the fastest or pulled the dyno off the floor, have someone on the Magazine test crew who is the master of drag racing dirt bikes, and tell him to post some numbers on all the bikes. That would weed out the bikes that post big dyno numbers (like that one year CR250) or the holy-shit-this-feels-faster-than-it-is bikes, and tell the world what can really lay it down, and what can't.
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Nope,wayyyyyy too many variables there :o
Dynos are actually reasonably accurate given temp/pressure/dyno type/operator differences.Still,a couple HP difference between when talking 30,40 hp isn't a huge deal.On a 5 hp engine it would be for sure.Most of the Dyno debate comes from people who don't want to believe their bike makes as little hp as it does-ahem ::)
In the superbike series up here,all the top finishers must have their bikes dyno'd on the track dyno to confirm the hp figures aren't over the class limit.
For a fee,anyone there can have their bike run on the same dyno.While the racers/tuners don't debate it,most spectator/ riders who have theirs tested seem to know for a fact they don't work-especially while they're looking at the printout while their buddies laugh at them.Go figure.
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I would want a brand new 83 CR125, an 84 CR250, and an 87 CR500. I know they arn't as good as I remember but then neither am I. BTW the 84 CR250 is still the fastest 250 I have ever ridden.
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If you put a bunch of bikes on one dyno in one day, with all those variables lined up, then sure you'll get fairly accurate results to compare. But when you start comparing numbers that are separated by twenty years, and those numbers say that a YZ426F should be 25% faster than another bike, yet is blatantly slower in the real world, there's got to be a problem in there somewhere. It's also possible for a dyno to post a big number for a bike, that is the result of an almost totally unusable powerband, like the '81 CR450.
Ultimately, I think the ideal measure of a bike would be to create a sort of "Nurburgring of Motocross;" a gruelling and massive track that tests all factors of a bike, with sand and flat-out straights and big hills and off-cambers and slimy mud and big whoops and small whoops and sail-through-the-air-jumps and the whole works. No metric of performance is going to be perfect, but the 'Ring seems to be fairly well accepted for performance cars, so I think a similar approach would be great for motocross as well. Now we just need someone crazy enough to make a track with ten-minute lap times.
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Now we just need someone crazy enough to make a track with ten-minute lap times.
That's too easy.Take your average MX track with about a 1.5 min lap time and put an old Maico on it.There's your 10 minute lap time :P
Dyno's have zero to do with usable hp or rideability.They simply measure true hp at a given rpm and peak.
Reasonably speaking,they are reasonably accurate,more or less,most of the time :D
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Ford I think you made a typo there, with an old Maico it's 10 LAPS PER MINUTE.
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Lol.I really need to find a way to yank Jetz's chain a little without lumping in you,opfermanmotors,maicoman etc.In the meantime,you're all together :D
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Don't worry, my chain has had the shit yanked out of it by the good old air-cooled. Your yanking efforts were hardly noticed.
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Jetz's membership is presently under review, at the next Klan meeting we'll see what the wizard has to say.
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You fool! I AM the wizard! Pay no attention to the bespectacled teenager behind the computer screen.
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(http://i.zdnet.com/blogs/the-wonderful-wizard-of-oz.jpg)
Jetz at work.......
:P :P :P