Two Stroke Motocross
Two Stroke Motocross Forum => General Two Stroke Talk => Topic started by: Recovered on December 13, 2009, 08:40:23 AM
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These are hand built, polished up works of art. Power of the 2 strokes is what you would expect, but TM likes a little hit. They have typical euro handling.
All that said, it may have changed because they have started with the aluminum frame garbage. That may have also required geometric changes to get that done. Too bad that happened...............
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These are hand built, polished up works of art. Power of the 2 strokes is what you would expect, but TM likes a little hit. They have typical euro handling.
All that said, it may have changed because they have started with the aluminum frame garbage. That may have also required geometric changes to get that done. Too bad that happened...............
TM Racing was supposed to show up at EICMA with their EFI two stroke...It never happened...Oh well!
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These are hand built, polished up works of art. Power of the 2 strokes is what you would expect, but TM likes a little hit. They have typical euro handling.
All that said, it may have changed because they have started with the aluminum frame garbage. That may have also required geometric changes to get that done. Too bad that happened...............
TM Racing was supposed to show up at EICMA with their EFI two stroke...It never happened...Oh well!
Maybe they figured out they didn't need the hassles of EFI.
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These are hand built, polished up works of art. Power of the 2 strokes is what you would expect, but TM likes a little hit. They have typical euro handling.
All that said, it may have changed because they have started with the aluminum frame garbage. That may have also required geometric changes to get that done. Too bad that happened...............
TM Racing was supposed to show up at EICMA with their EFI two stroke...It never happened...Oh well!
Maybe they figured out they didn't need the hassles of EFI.
Tell me why they do so well on Ski-Doos????
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It's a dirt bike, not a snowmobile.
Just for the record, ALL the 4T guys were crying their eye out, waiting for EFI to "save" the 4T's and their carburation problems. Madscientist warned said fools about all that would happen, including catalytic converters on the bikes, with the soon to follow emmissions testing!!
Yes, 4T fan, this is part of what you get, more hassles.
Now, go to page 88 in the December issue of Dirt Bike.
I'll quote it out for you.
THE ISSUE: You have a new FI CRF450R Honda, and in spite of the new mapping to the throttle body, the machine still coughs and tends to flame out at low rpm.
THE PRODUCT:Injectioneering specializes in performance EFI development. Injectioneering re-engineered the 2009-10 CRF450R throttle body to improve the throttle response (zero to quarter throttle region) and eliminate stumbling and stalling characteristics of the stock throttle body.
Emphasis obviously mine.
Courtesy Dirt Bike magazine, December 2009, page 88, top of page.
All EFI did was make things more complicated. I can get the stumble out of any 4T with a carb. You just wouldn't like the cost, or the peripheral problems you get when you take the stumble.
Again, be careful what you swallow from these (ANY) manufacturer.
I have spent 20 plus years screwing with FI off all types. 99% of the time, a carb is better, makes more HP and more torque.
That being said, some things require FI. Such as blown fuel (or nitomethane in any application) blown alcohol, blown gas. EFI is great for your daily driver and tow rig. Other than that.....................
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It's a dirt bike, not a snowmobile.
Just for the record, ALL the 4T guys were crying their eye out, waiting for EFI to "save" the 4T's and their carburation problems. Madscientist warned said fools about all that would happen, including catalytic converters on the bikes, with the soon to follow emmissions testing!!
Yes, 4T fan, this is part of what you get, more hassles.
Now, go to page 88 in the December issue of Dirt Bike.
I'll quote it out for you.
THE ISSUE: You have a new FI CRF450R Honda, and in spite of the new mapping to the throttle body, the machine still coughs and tends to flame out at low rpm.
THE PRODUCT:Injectioneering specializes in performance EFI development. Injectioneering re-engineered the 2009-10 CRF450R throttle body to improve the throttle response (zero to quarter throttle region) and eliminate stumbling and stalling characteristics of the stock throttle body.
Emphasis obviously mine.
Courtesy Dirt Bike magazine, December 2009, page 88, top of page.
All EFI did was make things more complicated. I can get the stumble out of any 4T with a carb. You just wouldn't like the cost, or the peripheral problems you get when you take the stumble.
Again, be careful what you swallow from these (ANY) manufacturer.
I have spent 20 plus years screwing with FI off all types. 99% of the time, a carb is better, makes more HP and more torque.
That being said, some things require FI. Such as blown fuel (or nitomethane in any application) blown alcohol, blown gas. EFI is great for your daily driver and tow rig. Other than that.....................
At the end they are both two stroke engine that operate under racing conditions...???? EFI system in modern four stroke dirt bike did fix a lot of problems like the infamous bogs...this is why people were not freestyling the 4 bangers..now you see them more often..An FI system with a good map will be as good as a tuned carb..if not better..
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2smoker - who told you this?
TM Racing was supposed to show up at EICMA with their EFI two stroke...It never happened...Oh well!
From the information I have gotten from the factory they will not have an EFI bike for a year or two and only if it works right.
As for me the jury is still out on whether EFI or DI will be good or bad for two stroke motocross racing. I'd have to see it and try it. In theory it could be good, but in the snowmobile and outboard applications, throttle control is not nearly as important as it is in motocross.
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2smoker - who told you this?
TM Racing was supposed to show up at EICMA with their EFI two stroke...It never happened...Oh well!
From the information I have gotten from the factory they will not have an EFI bike for a year or two and only if it works right.
As for me the jury is still out on whether EFI or DI will be good or bad for two stroke motocross racing. I'd have to see it and try it. In theory it could be good, but in the snowmobile and outboard applications, throttle control is not nearly as important as it is in motocross.
I took it directly from their website at that time... this quote is still on their Canadian Distributor website...The most important news is the arrival of the new TM 250Fi MX and EN versions.( fuel injected )
The official TM MX 250Fi presentation will take place in Milan at the EICMA in November and it will be on the market from January 2010.
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It's a dirt bike, not a snowmobile.
Just for the record, ALL the 4T guys were crying their eye out, waiting for EFI to "save" the 4T's and their carburation problems. Madscientist warned said fools about all that would happen, including catalytic converters on the bikes, with the soon to follow emmissions testing!!
Yes, 4T fan, this is part of what you get, more hassles.
Now, go to page 88 in the December issue of Dirt Bike.
I'll quote it out for you.
THE ISSUE: You have a new FI CRF450R Honda, and in spite of the new mapping to the throttle body, the machine still coughs and tends to flame out at low rpm.
THE PRODUCT:Injectioneering specializes in performance EFI development. Injectioneering re-engineered the 2009-10 CRF450R throttle body to improve the throttle response (zero to quarter throttle region) and eliminate stumbling and stalling characteristics of the stock throttle body.
Emphasis obviously mine.
Courtesy Dirt Bike magazine, December 2009, page 88, top of page.
All EFI did was make things more complicated. I can get the stumble out of any 4T with a carb. You just wouldn't like the cost, or the peripheral problems you get when you take the stumble.
Again, be careful what you swallow from these (ANY) manufacturer.
I have spent 20 plus years screwing with FI off all types. 99% of the time, a carb is better, makes more HP and more torque.
That being said, some things require FI. Such as blown fuel (or nitomethane in any application) blown alcohol, blown gas. EFI is great for your daily driver and tow rig. Other than that.....................
At the end they are both two stroke engine that operate under racing conditions...???? EFI system in modern four stroke dirt bike did fix a lot of problems like the infamous bogs...this is why people were not freestyling the 4 bangers..now you see them more often..An FI system with a good map will be as good as a tuned carb..if not better..
Apparently you didn't read the direct quote I posted from Dirt Bike. ??? EFI didn't fix bog problems. You guys all love FI, but I'm telling you, it ain't what you think, and a snowmobile is not a dirt bike. Just like a drag car is not the same as a circle track car.
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Hey 2smoker - don't take this the wrong way or anything, but I'm not sure you read the rules of the board. They are simple and they are short.
Disagree all you want, just be RESPECTFUL. No name calling, bullying or libel.
If you disagree with someone about anything, please respond using facts. If something's your opinion, please state that as well.
The Maico thread was borderline and I didn't delete it. But please be more mindful and respectful in the future.
As you can see I edited your your last post....
Thanks!
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Hey 2smoker - don't take this the wrong way or anything, but I'm not sure you read the rules of the board. They are simple and they are short.
Disagree all you want, just be RESPECTFUL. No name calling, bullying or libel.
If you disagree with someone about anything, please respond using facts. If something's your opinion, please state that as well.
The Maico thread was borderline and I didn't delete it. But please be more mindful and respectful in the future.
As you can see I edited your your last post....
Thanks!
hahahah You were faster than me! I went back to modify it and wasn't there! B*******!
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Was it a marketing hype from TM? Feeler for the customers?
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It was actually a post I found on a European web site. Someone interviewed the TM racing team manager who told the interviewer that TM would have a EFI two stroke in 2010.
Since I know Dan (USA & Canadian TM distributor) I asked him, he then called the factory. The "official" word from the factory is that the 2010 model two-strokes will not have EFI, although they did say there is a possibility for 2011 or 2012.
I went back to re-read the interview on the website and it's gone!
So here's my guess on what will happen, this is purely my opinion.... :P When the opening round of the FIM European 125 Championship opens in Italy in April, there very well might be a fuel injected 125 TM competing.
No small factory would spread these kind of rumors, it would backfire on them in a big way... in fact they try very hard to keep insider information from getting out. But people will be people and they love to talk... what happens is it's a game of telephone. And by the time the "rumor" goes through three levels it's completely different from the original story. :-X
So if you want to say that someone started the rumor about the EFI TM... I know the guy that started it.... I usually see him in the mirror when I wake up.... :o :o
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Smooth move there, John.
Anyway, I think the big advantage to FI in a two-stroke isn't necessarily going to be one of performance. What it's going to do is help the air. It seems kind of weird to be a two-stroke guy and an environmentalist, but seriously, the two-stroke has a pretty thick file folder of environmental problems. In SE Asia, two-strokes are used for everything. A family of five will pile onto one two-stroke bike, every taxi is built on top of a two-stroke bike, scooters are everywhere. The unfortunate result of this otherwise-badass 2T-centered world is the pollution. That blue smoke (not everyone tunes their bike like madscientists) has built up a lot, and hangs in the air like a haze.
There's a company called Enviro-Fit (I believe there's an article about them somewhere here on TSM) that makes retrofit kits for the 2T engines and reduces their emissions drastically. Rather than having fuel-air mix running out the exhaust port, you just lose air, and the fuel is introduced only after all ports have been closed.
Envirofit Two-Stroke Retrofit Program - produced by The 2008 Rolex Awards for Enterprise (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pe5-N5mDiAA#)
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I agree about the cleaner running two-strokes, but the racers will have a difficult time adopting the new technology unless it is proven to be at least as good if not better than the standard carburetor.
The truth is that we could be on electric bikes before that happens. Now before anyone goes into all the reasons that an electric bike won't work, realize that there are many people researching battery technology and they will find a way to make them work.
Check out this cool retro-fit electric bike based on a Honda CRF250..... it's kind of a long read and has some video as well.
http://www.evdrive.com/Emoto_project/moto_project.html (http://www.evdrive.com/Emoto_project/moto_project.html)
One thing to realize is that this project was done by a "back yard" mechanic. While he might be much smarter than the average guy and have access to some interesting tools, he is not affiliated with any major manufacturer. When put in this perspective it is all the more amazing!
This is one machine I'd love to test!!
As for Eviro-fit their retro-fit kit is for the Kawasaki KE125 air-cooled engine that is used in rickshaws in the east. This kit reduces carbon monoxide emissions by 76%, carbon dioxide emissions by 35%, and hydrocarbon emissions by 89%. In addition fuel use is reduced by 35% and oil by 50%. And has lead to the air quality in places like the Philippines to be much easier to breathe.
http://twostrokemotocross.com/2009/04/the-epa-vs-motocross/ (http://twostrokemotocross.com/2009/04/the-epa-vs-motocross/)
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It was actually a post I found on a European web site. Someone interviewed the TM racing team manager who told the interviewer that TM would have a EFI two stroke in 2010.
Since I know Dan (USA & Canadian TM distributor) I asked him, he then called the factory. The "official" word from the factory is that the 2010 model two-strokes will not have EFI, although they did say there is a possibility for 2011 or 2012.
I went back to re-read the interview on the website and it's gone!
So here's my guess on what will happen, this is purely my opinion.... :P When the opening round of the FIM European 125 Championship opens in Italy in April, there very well might be a fuel injected 125 TM competing.
No small factory would spread these kind of rumors, it would backfire on them in a big way... in fact they try very hard to keep insider information from getting out. But people will be people and they love to talk... what happens is it's a game of telephone. And by the time the "rumor" goes through three levels it's completely different from the original story. :-X
So if you want to say that someone started the rumor about the EFI TM... I know the guy that started it.... I usually see him in the mirror when I wake up.... :o :o
hahaah awesome! The whole story ended up on the MXA website!
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It's funny, but I discovered that someone from MXA checks the main site out every once in a while, then a little while later there's a post on the MXA site about something that had been posted on mine first.
Coincidence??? :D
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It's funny, but I discovered that someone from MXA checks the main site out every once in a while, then a little while later there's a post on the MXA site about something that had been posted on mine first.
Coincidence??? :D
Blame me because I e-mailed MXA twice about it after..I totally harassed them to put the bike on their next cover!!!
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Now that's funny!!
Did you e-mail them about the four cylinder CR 2000? Or the Ancellotti?
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I real like the handling on the tm`s haven't ridden whit the aluminum frames
but i don`t think that it really ride that different than Japanese counterparts
whit electric bike/cars getting more common you would need more power
then you get problem that we need more Cole power plants
and even more nuclear power plants.
then you get radiactive waste
and what about power blackouts