Two Stroke Motocross
Two Stroke Motocross Forum => General Two Stroke Talk => Topic started by: opfermanmotors on March 20, 2011, 11:20:04 AM
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http://www.thumpertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=964946 (http://www.thumpertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=964946)
Lots of ppl are saying the price of rebuild a 4t is exagerated and that it's not really more expensive than a 2t.
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ll I know is I have over $500 in my sons quad. I've replaced the crank, crank bearings, timing chain, timing. chain tensioner, timing chain guides, bored out the cylinder, new piston and rings. I've done all of the work myself. If I had to pay someone. It would easily be over $1,000. I'm thankful I don't have to replace valves. ( I replaced the valve seals last winter). And this is for an old reliable honda xr 400 motor.
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The people saying that have appearently never owned a 2st.
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Lol. One guy said you can totally rebuild a 450 for around 700 dollars. Haha. Maybe he forgot the cylinder.
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I know my total top end rebuild on my 2000 CR 250 just cost me about $158. (Cometic complete top end gasket set, Wiseco top end, and radiator fluid)
I know when I rebuilt my RMZ 250 top end only, it cost me $210 for just the piston/rings and several top end gaskets.
It is extremely cheaper to rebuild a 2T compared to a 4T. Don't even get me started on how much it cost me to completely rebuild the RMZ's engine. >:(
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A guy we ride with did his RM450 top end to freshen it up. Nothing broken. Cost $500 with him doing some of the work. I would have to go out of my way to try and spend over $200 on my YZ250.
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Our #1 hurdle is getting, ourselves included, everyone to understand and to compare cc vs cc. Almost every debate I go see, it says my 450F is great bla bla bla, compared to my old 250 2 stroke.
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Our #1 hurdle is getting, ourselves included, everyone to understand and to compare cc vs cc. Almost every debate I go see, it says my 450F is great bla bla bla, compared to my old 250 2 stroke.
I agree 100%!
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Our #1 hurdle is getting, ourselves included, everyone to understand and to compare cc vs cc. Almost every debate I go see, it says my 450F is great bla bla bla, compared to my old 250 2 stroke.
I agree 100%!
Oh, and along with that, getting magazines to run complete 250cc shootouts and open class shootouts....
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I agree. There are strong vocal personalities who issue bad propaganda about the equal displacments - Davey Coombs. If he was neutralized, then it might have a chance. For some reason, everyone hangs on what he says, and is affraid to make him mad. And of course, he's affraid to make the Japs mad. The cc for cc change would be the easiest change in the world to make for the AMA, but they're polarized by the thought of Marvin Musquin showing up and beating everyone so badly on a KTM 250SX, that they won't even consider it (these are the words out of DC's mouth).
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Very good read here and Roger talks about 250 vs 250. http://motocrossactionmag.com/Main/News/MOTOCROSS-ACTION-INTERVIEW-THE-REPETITIVE-LIFE-OF-7760.aspx (http://motocrossactionmag.com/Main/News/MOTOCROSS-ACTION-INTERVIEW-THE-REPETITIVE-LIFE-OF-7760.aspx)
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Yeah perfectly put and been preached by all of us for years.
DO YOU THINK THAT 250 TWO-STROKES SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO RACE AGAINST 250 FOUR-STROKES?
ROGER DECOSTER: Yes. I think it would be fine. The two-stroke makes more horsepower, but it makes it over a narrower range, while the four-stroke makes less power, but has a broad powerband. I think they are equal machines. The two-stroke would be better in sand and deep loam, while the four-stroke would be better on harder dirt. It takes a more talented rider to race the two-stroke and I can see where it would be difficult for most of the current 250 four-stroke riders to make the change. I'd wouldn't oppose a rule change.
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Yeah perfectly put and been preached by all of us for years.
DO YOU THINK THAT 250 TWO-STROKES SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO RACE AGAINST 250 FOUR-STROKES?
ROGER DECOSTER: Yes. I think it would be fine. The two-stroke makes more horsepower, but it makes it over a narrower range, while the four-stroke makes less power, but has a broad powerband. I think they are equal machines. The two-stroke would be better in sand and deep loam, while the four-stroke would be better on harder dirt. It takes a more talented rider to race the two-stroke and I can see where it would be difficult for most of the current 250 four-stroke riders to make the change. I'd wouldn't oppose a rule change.
I don't think he would have been able to say that when he was still working for Suzuki.
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He hits the nail on the head here;
I think that the Japanese managers donā??t see a problem until it is in full crisis mode.
;) ;)
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I don't think he would have been able to say that when he was still working for Suzuki.
Foo Shoo> Have you noticed how everyone in the industry talks about how good 2 strokes are, when they retire, or go to a team that have 2 strokes?
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I agree. There are strong vocal personalities who issue bad propaganda about the equal displacments - Davey Coombs. If he was neutralized, then it might have a chance. For some reason, everyone hangs on what he says, and is affraid to make him mad. And of course, he's affraid to make the Japs mad. The cc for cc change would be the easiest change in the world to make for the AMA, but they're polarized by the thought of Marvin Musquin showing up and beating everyone so badly on a KTM 250SX, that they won't even consider it (these are the words out of DC's mouth).
I usually stay quiet about mis-information in this place but really? If DC was "neutralized"? The guy who is the reason you can run 250 vs 250F at Loretta's, the guy who's bringing a 125 class to be between the motos entertainment in the nationals.. if you silenced THAT guy suddenly we'd have 250s in the Lites class huh?
DC and the AMA have said on many occasions they put the vote up to the OEMs. Not even the ones who still made and sold 2-strokes (including KTM) wanted 250 vs 250F. How does getting rid of DC solve that problem in any way?
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"DC and the AMA have said on many occasions they put the vote up to the OEMs."
That's the problem, the AMA gives the manufacturers the upper hand, because they are the ones supporting the televised series competitions. AMA Pro Racing.
AMA stands for American Motorcyclists Association and last time I checked, America was still a democracy. But here we are, the grass roots of motorcycle racing, screwing the pooch, because four Japanese manufacturers are pissing in our drinking water.
The longer this crap plays out the more I consider putting a 1% sticker on my two stroke. Not that I'm an evil biker but because the AMA doesn't give a shit about my opinion, or it's grassroots racing members. I can't believe that they don't see the membership numbers plummeting, or the race turn outs dwindling, in the ameture ranks. Their vision is clouded by the Japanese money, and big rigs. When the truth is that there are 500 times as many pick up trucks & vans with trailers driven by AMA members that pay thier dues to support an association that is screw thier own future,
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One thing you guys need to remember, or learn, not sure which. AMA and ProAMA are not the same thing. AMA has rules of 250cc and open already. ProAMA which is now owned by a seperate entity are who runs the stupid rules. DC has had the hand in GNCC, AMA and LL being cc for cc. So that I will defend him. I also know the only reason the Pro's don't run the cc for cc rules, is because DC's hands are tied along with people like Roger etc. It all comes down to money and the OEM's running the show with money to make the rules they want in ProAMA. That is why I've said the pro thing is futile. We need to get the magazines to start running shootouts. When the KTM 250SX is beating everyone elses 4 stroke including theirs. Other OEM's will have to start thinking about making them, and thinking about the rules. Because how will it look for a KTM250SX beating everyone in shootouts, and then when people go to MX/ SX races, there isn't any of them on the track? Only the slower bikes are on the Pro track. WTF? they will ask. One more thing to imagine. What if the shootout had TM's, Maicos, Husky's etc. What if then, the big four, were the losing 4. Just sayin. Magazines are where we need to put pressure.
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I've written here a few times before, I don't believe DC is the obstacle. His comment about 250 2t VS 250 4T being unfair, I believe, was a jibe at those who did not want it - the 4 Japanese manufacturers. And, I believe his view that he / the industry needs to concentrate on the 'lead issue', that could destroy motorcycle sport, by denying entry to our sport to young people - the ones we need if we are to have a market that manufacturers will cater to. No new riders, if which a few will select it as their 'Life Sport', no new people to sell bikes to.
We baby boomers and 70s bike boom riders,who still form the major part of the market, will die out , eventually.
I remember the quoted example of Tommy Searle (or any KTM signed Pro, basically) being the feared thing by manufacturers, and KTM being willing to sign legal documents saying they would not put one of their Pros on a SX. Sounds like this is being re-hashed, re-rider labelled by someone.
DC runs/ owns the company that has the contract to run the nationals, from the Daytona, DMG(?) group. If he were to push things through, it would be easy for the manufacturers (they've had enough of the 'bums rush' given to them by DMG in Road Racing - they'd happily rebel against DMG) to get rid of him, and, God help us if DMG itself runs MX, or Youthstream get a hold on the US.
And, as I've also written before, our best examples of the BS of manufacturers saying it would be 'unfair' ( well, in reality, a marketing disaster for them) is where equivalency has been granted. It hasn't resulted in the 4ts being destroyed, it makes the argument look foolish from those that use that arguement to oppose it. That's how it, equivalency, will eventually be brought into the major Pro racing series. I don't believe it takes more skill to ride a 2t ( arguing with The Man, I here you thinking), just a Different set of skills. That, once the highly skilled youngsters, who get the rides from the Pro teams, get off of 85s and 2t Superminis, change to working with the all prevalent 4t, loose. There's infinitely more support, through all industry levels, for 4t rides. Combine that with the loss of 2t riding skill sets, and it not hard to see how most of the Pro / Paid riders who go back to a 2t, generally go straight back to 4ts. They need the support, and those who can / will supoort them, run 4t teams. The drongos who cite this as how 2ts aren't good enough, riders return to 4ts (whilst still opposing equivalency - how do you say, 'selective vision?"), so why bother?, make gooses of themselves time and time again.