Two Stroke Motocross
Two Stroke Motocross Forum => General Two Stroke Talk => Topic started by: westsiderippa on February 02, 2010, 09:43:40 PM
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well, where do i start? how about with im fed up with 4t's. lol....
seriously though here is my situation. the 2010 race season is starting for me witch includes mainly OTHG Vet mx, ama arean x, i know i know....... local bay area races i.e cmc, amp etc... and i will be attending a few lorreta qualifiers this season in hopes to make a regional. most of my classes are age group depending on promoter i.e. 25+ 30+ and the occasional 450 open and or 450 INT. so being that i am a mainly age group/vet rider there are no displacement rules, its all open. hence the reason i went to a 450 when i turned 30. so here is where im at, my 07 crf 450 is a granade with the pin out right now. it has close to 200 hrs on it and im just not willing to dump the 2 g's into it to keep it rolling for 2010. i recently sold my 07 cr 250 to buy my girlfriend a RING, lol, had to do it. i have my 01 cr 250 that might need to go bye bye to fund racing and a new bike. im not willing to spend the coin on an AF 500 and really want to go 2t. 8/10 guys that ride any vet race are on a 450. i raced a few events last year on my cr250 and can tell you first hand that displacement sucks. tracks like glen helen, hangtown, honey lake etc.. a 450 will eat up a 250 and thats just common sense. so i just dont know what to do. i want to man up and go full time 2t but at the int level and having to race against 450's i will never see a podium. so this is where i ask myself why? why do i even do this? is it for fun? or is it to win? well im at a point where i want to answer yes to both and i have a new reason, to prove a point. to prove that the 2t can hang with the 4turds.
so here is how im breaking this down in my head. 1 i need a new bike 2010 2. i am bored with the 450 and want to race 2t. 3. if i choose to i can ride the 250 class but will still be at disadvantage in the vet class. 4. i tired of having multiple bikes and paying to maintain them all. 5. im sick of adjusting valves, lol.
so what do you all think of my situation? im just looking for other opinions from current racers. i know what a 2t is all about i ride and own them but is it worth it to handicap myself. its not cheap to race and the feel of winning is sort of payback.
so.. im thinking yz250 ktm 250sx. im leaning toward the yz because my mechanic i ride for is a master of that bike and the cost of parts will be cheaper and more readilly available.
help me get my head on striaght here.
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ok, my opinion, get the yz 250, sell all your other bikes, this bike can be used for woods and track, you just need to swap some stuff every time you switch. Race the 250 class as your primary class, and every once in a while, when you feel you have the balls, go into a 450 race, and give it everything you have. You will bring home some hardware in the 250 class, but be able to challenge yourself in the 450, if your in the 450 class with a 250 two stroke, you will be always pushing yourself to go faster, when it comes time to race the 250f's you will destroy them
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8) OK westsiderippa, I am a little older than you but race in the same area you do so I can relate. I ride the OTHG also, (Reno Chapter) I am 65 years old and compete in the 52+ class. I ride a 2004 RM125. No big bore kit, just tuning and pipe...I ran Hangtown OTHG National with 33 guys in my class (Mar 09) and finish 4th overall......against 90% 450f's. I raced Fernley othg national with 19 guys in my class (May 09) and was 1st OVERALL winning 2 of the 4 motos. My point is, don't sell yourself short because you are competing on a 2 stroke and think you must make up "something" somewhere. I think of all the positives when I go the line about my tiddler and when the other guys look at me on the line I SMILE BIG. When the moto is over, sooner or later they all make it by my pit area to check out the old man on the little 2 stroke.....................WHO NEEDS A TROPHY AFTER THAT??????????? I got my reward.....rider/racer acknowledgment for my competition....... If we don't ride two strokes at the local races, club races, and every national event we are able to attend, then we are part of the problem, not the solution......I love riding my 2 strokes and wll never fall to the dark side.......................buy the YZ250, you will be the envy or your riding buddies and the guy they are talking about at the races..........Rooster
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well put rooster, i like your style and understand your point. like my signature says, win on a 2stroke your a hero if you lose just blame the bike, lol. ill keep an eye out for you at the nationals this year. if im on a yz i wont be hard to find in the 30 int.
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Westside,
I race a KTM 250sx in 40+ Vets class here in Australia and prefer it to my '06 yz 250 I had previously.
For me it has more factory options with "Go Fast Bits" with KTM Hardparts and I love the tunable powervalve springs and hydrolic clutch as standard.
Not sure about your class system there, but the 300 might be an even better option, two stroke with electric start...........what else does a man need :D :D
I'm currently thinking about fitting a 300 kit to mine. Giddeyup !!!!!
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Look into some of the 285 kits for the YZ250 as well. With some tuning you should be right about in the same HP and torque range of the 450's. I thought about one for my YZ250, but in the 40+ C class, I really don't need the extra power, just more seat time!!! ~Russ
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West,
You don't need to alter the displacement of a 2t 250 to hang with the 450's. If you keep it stock displacement you will still be able to compete in the 250 class as well. Last weekend at a local track there was a guy on a bone stock brand new yz250 and he was whooping up on some pro riders, and i don't mean local pro but PRO.
This is what I just did, pick up a 250 2t of your choice, strip it down and build it up from the ground up. Have a reputable shop (ie Reynard Modifications, Robert has extensive knowledge on 2t's and can make some SERIOUS power) completely build up your motor, get your suspension set up for your skill and weight and hit the track. I just finished doing this to my cr250, and the thing is amazing!!!! When all was said and done I had about the cost of a bran new bike in it, but this one is set up and customized to me and my riding. I am in it for about 2k labor 1,500 parts and 2k for the original bike, so for about $5,500 (these are rough figures) you have your race bike done. If you want to get crazy you could pick up a set of used A-kits and have them rebuilt and you would still be under the price of a new 4t.
Another thing to consider is that ,at least in the mid west, in the 30+ class alot of riders are carring about 30+ lbs with them as well, and weight robs hp and torque like a fat kid after cake!
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Hey westsiderippa - Man.... your story is so similar to many people out there. You prefer the two-stroke and want to race it but feel that you would be at a big disadvantage by choosing the two-stroke.
I hear you!!!
But the question is, are you really giving something up? Is the two-stroke really at a dis-advantage?
If you search your heart of hearts you will find that it does not have to be that way. You said "i raced a few events last year on my cr250 and can tell you first hand that displacement sucks. tracks like glen helen, hangtown, honey lake etc.. a 450 will eat up a 250 and thats just common sense." do you really believe that?
If so, that is the first "strike" against you.
As an example I will use a local Pro/Expert Racer in my area, Mike Leavitt. He too felt that in order to be competitive that he had to race the four-stroke bikes. He was on track to be a Pro racer, but had so many engine failures with his four-strokes that it was just crazy.
At mid-season in 2009 he finally had enough and parked his 450F and started to race his YZ250 two-stroke. He also raced the 25 Plus class with the same machine. What happened? His first race out on the two-stroke, he won all four motos!!!
He decided that he preferred the two-stroke and would beat the 450f's at their own game and he did. He won the 250 Expert (450F) and Plus 25 classes on his 250 two-stroke. The funny part of this story is that some people thought that he was cheating and using an over-bore!! But no one actually put up the protest fee, most likely for fear that it was only 250cc and they would look silly.
So the question for you is, do you really want to race the two-stroke? Because it can be done. Where can the 250 two-stroke beat the 450's?? In the corners. I know that so many people love jumps and jumping, but if you take the time to learn how to corner and get yourself into pretty good shape, you can win.
But you have another option as well... get a purpose built 300 MX machine! KTM has a bolt on kit for the 250SX and TM Racing has a purpose built 300MX... with the extra 50cc's you gain additional torque equal to or more than the 450F's and yet have a lighter machine. The best of all worlds.
I believe that you can do it!! Good luck!
By the way... congratulations on your engagement!
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If you are wanting a NEW bike, I'd go along with the KTM 250SX and putting on a 300 kit. If not, get a older but very unused YZ250 from 05 up, since they are all the same, and just do the big bore. It's not just the HP numbers you seem to be looking for, but the torque as well. The big bore will give you what you need.
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The worst disadvantage against the 4 stroke on a 2 stroke is to keep up the momentum with them. One mistake and you are done. This is why I quit racing. I had a full factory YZ bought from Riverside Yamaha( pro Circuit engine...) I was killing them on the whoops section and jumps like no tomorrow but they had a big advantage everywhere else. You are there shifting like a retard, revving that thing like not tomorrow and here they come on their 4 junk at the exit of the apex killing you sit in third gear on their stock bike..It is so unfair. I think the keyword is traction or usable/tractable power...4 stroke have it, not the 2. Their power delivery makes the biggest difference in the battle, not only the cc's and you definitely see it when you race against them. :-[
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I'm one of those racers that switched from two to four stroke to stay competitive,
biggest mistake I ever made. Yes it was easier to lay down faster lap times and
fatigue didn't set in as early in the moto, but the tradeoff was a huge increase
in cost and a huge decrease in fun.
I wised up late in '06, sitting in a hospital bed (engine blew up again and seized
off the face of a double). Fortunately, I managed to sell all of my bikes and parts
to unsuspecting wanabes. It's back to two strokes only, from now on.
The way I see it, you have a few options. You can go with a 250 2T and spend
a large amount of money to get the power needed to race heads up with the 450s,
you can opt for a 285 or 300 and be more competetive without spending bags of
money or you can pick up a 500 AF and dominate the 450s.
I had over $17,000 tied up in the last CR I raced ('03). You can buy a brand new
YZ and a big bore kit, or a Katoom 300 for less than half that amount. Even a
Service Honda CR or KX 500 would cost much less than the amount required to
make a 250 2t competitive.
I plan to race my CR250 in the 250f class. Unlike the AMA, I believe everybody
should be equal. ;)
dogger
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thanks john, best decision i have made was selling that bike and buying that ring. she is my number 1 fan and sponsor, lol. its all about manning up at this point. im fast on the 2t but need more practice. i just need to park the 450 like you said, get what i can out of it before it goes boom, and focus on riding 100% 2t. now to find an 09 yz. any thoughts where to look. none around the bay area i have found. the guys at OTD in auburn are searching and they said no 2010 till march april. found 1 09 on ebay in MI but thats another 600+ to ship.
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thanks john, best decision i have made was selling that bike and buying that ring. she is my number 1 fan and sponsor, lol. its all about manning up at this point. im fast on the 2t but need more practice. i just need to park the 450 like you said, get what i can out of it before it goes boom, and focus on riding 100% 2t. now to find an 09 yz. any thoughts where to look. none around the bay area i have found. the guys at OTD in auburn are searching and they said no 2010 till march april. found 1 09 on ebay in MI but thats another 600+ to ship.
Hey, when you are done with your 450, keep the frame, and buy a cr 500 motor, I assume you would be able to find one for cheap, and make your own bike conversion. But, my suggestion, drop the 450 now for the track, use it only in the woods. Spend all your time on your 2 stroke at the track, so you are ready for your first race.
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thanks john, best decision i have made was selling that bike and buying that ring. she is my number 1 fan and sponsor, lol. its all about manning up at this point. im fast on the 2t but need more practice. i just need to park the 450 like you said, get what i can out of it before it goes boom, and focus on riding 100% 2t. now to find an 09 yz. any thoughts where to look. none around the bay area i have found. the guys at OTD in auburn are searching and they said no 2010 till march april. found 1 09 on ebay in MI but thats another 600+ to ship.
As great as dirt bike's are, there is nothing quite the same as having that kind of support in your life. All the best on that....
If you are determined you can locate an '09... a buddy of mine just spent an hour or so calling around to dealers in a three state area and found a couple at some dealers in New Jersey. Obviously these are far from you, but you could do the same near you. Also if a dealer is really interested in selling you a bike, they can check with the warehouse or other dealers and get the bike for you....
For shipping, it should not be much more then $400. to ship a bike across the country! I used Forward Air to ship my bike and the cost was $385. from New York to Miami... it got there in two days! They have a cost calculator on the site if you want to get a better idea. Although the bike will need to be dropped off and picked up at a Forward Air Terminal.
Did you try Service Honda? They are a full line dealer and AJ always seems to have some bikes in stock... it's worth asking! Plus they may have a deal on shipping that is less then what I found!
Once you decide to go two-stroke, you must remain committed, but most importantly, not psyche yourself out that the four-strokes are better. It's really not true!! Your attitude going in will be what you experience. Believe that you can beat them and guess what? You will beat them!
There is a reason that the old saying says that it's 90% rider and 10% bike..... it's not just the skill level, but your mental focus.. which is a much bigger piece (of course assuming that you have a base line of skill to begin with). As an example look at Ryan Dungey... everyone is saying that he has his head "together" and is very confident, he knows he belongs at the front and that's where he is.
You can do it!! With the lovely misses at your side, encouraging you, you'll be unbeatable in your class! Now go kick some four-stroke butt!! ;D ;D
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West,
I have to ask why are you wanting to go with a brand new 2 stroke? I know about frame fatigue and all that but, most (i would say 90%) riders do not ride their bikes hard enough to fatigue the frame. Other than that the only thing you would have to replace is some barrings and seals. You can buy a used one and completley I mean completely deck it out for less than what your are going to spend on a new bike.
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Dogger, I am currious to how you spent 17,000 on a 2t. The only way I can see 17k is if you put 5k worth of suspension on it. I have everything done to my engine and it cost me less than 2,500 parts and labor, now this is with me removing the engine myself but still. I am not calling you a liar, I am just trying to understand. I know that labor might have cost more back then because 2t's were more popular.
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I am currious to how you spent 17,000 on a 2t.
No problem, I'll break it down for you:
Tom Morgan Racing built engine - $3000
Pro Circuit works suspension - $6500
Titanium hardware (fastners, linkage, pegs, etc) - $3200
Excel rims, superlight hubs, SS spokes - $1000
Titanium fork and shock springs - $1200
Misc items (triple clamps, handlebars, chain,
sprockets, skid plate, pipe, silencer, cables,
adj. clutch perch, air filters and cages, etc., etc.) - $1500
2003 Honda CR250 - $6000
Total with the bike: $22,400
The total doesn't include incidentals like labor for frame gusseting,
skid plate mounts, airbox mods, Dunlop RR tires, VP MR2 fuel.
This bike could hang with the 450s, but it cost a bunch to do it.
That was the main reason I eventually switched.
Here are some pictures of my 2002 which was virtually identical
to my '03.
dogger
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg107/dogger315/2002CR250-1.jpg)
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg107/dogger315/backup572-1.jpg)
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg107/dogger315/backup564-1.jpg)
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg107/dogger315/backup561.jpg)
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg107/dogger315/backup567.jpg)
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg107/dogger315/WorksShowa1-1.jpg)
Here is a pic of the shock off the bike
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Wow!!!
Talk about a beautiful bike!!! :o (and huge amount of money hahahaha!)
As many people around I rode and race my 250SX in the regional MX championship here in my country, and did the big step to the national championship last year. I felt that, even if I relly loved my 2S, I should ride a 450F in order to race in the nationals. I knew a lot about 2 strokes, I knew the lies about 4 stroke marketing, but still I sold my smoker to get a thumper.
In short, I rode just a few races because I wasn't comfortable with the bike, I'd lost the joy to ride, I became lazy and really wasn't going faster. I never get used or liked the way the thumper handles neither the engine and I wasn't so exited about riding or racing as I was the year before on the 2 stroke.
Now, after paying attention to my heart and also to the mind part that always knew the advantages of the smoker, I'm selling my 450F to buy a 250 2 stroke for this year races, to recover the fun factor and the joy to ride and practice the sport I loved since I was a child (even if I could not began to practice it until I get older) MOTOCROSS.
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I am currious to how you spent 17,000 on a 2t.
No problem, I'll break it down for you:
Tom Morgan Racing built engine - $3000
Pro Circuit works suspension - $6500
Titanium hardware (fastners, linkage, pegs, etc) - $3200
Excel rims, superlight hubs, SS spokes - $1000
Titanium fork and shock springs - $1200
Misc items (triple clamps, handlebars, chain,
sprockets, skid plate, pipe, silencer, cables,
adj. clutch perch, air filters and cages, etc., etc.) - $1500
2003 Honda CR250 - $6000
Total with the bike: $22,400
The total doesn't include incidentals like labor for frame gusseting,
skid plate mounts, airbox mods, Dunlop RR tires, VP MR2 fuel.
This bike could hang with the 450s, but it cost a bunch to do it.
That was the main reason I eventually switched.
Here are some pictures of my 2002 which was virtually identical
to my '03.
dogger
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg107/dogger315/2002CR250-1.jpg)
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg107/dogger315/backup572-1.jpg)
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg107/dogger315/backup564-1.jpg)
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg107/dogger315/backup561.jpg)
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg107/dogger315/backup567.jpg)
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg107/dogger315/WorksShowa1-1.jpg)
Here is a pic of the shock off the bike
Dogger, that is one mighty impressive machine!!
Out of curiosity, how did you do when you switched to the four-stroke? How many National events did you compete in? And what did it cost you to set up the four-stroke?
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that is a beautiful bike.
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Nice bike. Thanks for breaking it down for me. It is kinda jacked up that PC doesn't include ti springs on ther "works" suspension, (to me works means the works ie. everything). Just out of curiosity how much weight savings was there in replacing everything with TI hardware. What kind of frame gusseting did you have done and was it a noticable difference? How often did you have to freshen that engine? What was the cost difference when you switched to the 4t? Thanks.
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just wow! What a beautiful bike!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :-*
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I rode just a few races because I wasn't comfortable with the bike, I'd lost the joy to ride
That's a pretty good summary of the way I felt, ferrahout. I had never raced/ridden anything but two
strokes off road and could never get comfortable on a four stroke. It was a lot less fun for sure.
How many National events did you compete in?
John, as you know, I raced my first event as a pro in '79 so I am definitely on the back side of Jody's
(Weisel) speed bell curve. My pro/Nationals days are a distant memory now.
how did you do when you switched to the four-stroke?
More bad than good. I couldn't come to terms with the extra weight and engine braking aspects compared
to the CR I just jumped off of. I spent a lot of money putting the CRF on a diet and added a slipper clutch
to help make the bike behave more like my CRs but it was a lost cause and I found I began to lose my
enthusiasm for racing and as a result, my training and ultimately my speed dropped off. Looking back on
it, the decision to switch was a big, costly (time and money) mistake.
And what did it cost you to set up the four-stroke?
I left the engines mostly stock (it had plenty of power). I added a White Bros Carbon Pro exhaust, a Twin
Air Power Flow Filter kit and, since I was racing amateur, VP U2 oxygenated fuel. The above mods were
good for about 6 more hp. I spent the biggest bucks on lightening the bike by replacing every thing made
from steel with carbon fiber or titanium. I bolted on a Pro Circuit "Works" suspension, oversized disc rotors
(to help slow the pig down) and a bunch of little items to help with hot starts and to make the bike fit
better. Totals including the cost of a new bike each year, ranged from $19,000 in '04 to $21,000 in '06.
The big wammy was the cost of maintenance and replacement parts needed during a normal season of
racing. That budget was more than double what I spent racing CRs and engine reliabilty/duarability was
still poor.
It is kinda jacked up that PC doesn't include ti springs on ther "works" suspension
I don't have a problem with that. The Ti springs react a little different than a steel spring of the
same weight. Switching between the two gives me just another option to dial it in. I am greatfull
companies like Pro Circuit are offering this level of suspension to the public. I know it's expensive,
but the performance capability these components offer is worth every penny.
Just out of curiosity how much weight savings was there in replacing everything with TI hardware.
Close to ten pounds with the biggest savings coming from the shock spring, linkage and axles.
What kind of frame gusseting did you have done and was it a noticable difference?
Basically we added some stiffeners around the steering stem and ran beads all the way around
areas that were only spot welded at the factory. The goal was to increase reliabilty and delay
"frame spread".
How often did you have to freshen that engine?
When I was racing every weekend (back when I was "serious") I would replace the top end weekly.
The clutch pack after every moto/practice, and the bottom end would get checked every four races
mostly because I had more money than sense. Most of these slightly used parts would end up in my
practice bikes throughout the season. Back in the day, I had two complete race motors and two
complete suspension sets. One would be at the shop for rebuild/refresh while the other was being
raced each week. Truth be told, I believe an A/pro level rider could could get by with a top end
replacement every four races and use the same bottom end for the whole season with complete
reliability. A B/intermediate racer could double that. Try doing that on a four stroke - BOOOOM!
Looking back, the baddest CRs I ever raced were my '00 and '01. I nicknamed my '00 "Christine" after
a couple of "soil samples", that bike demanded respect or else. TMR built me the motor of doom and
after a lot of testing, I managed to get the frame and suspension dialed in. The '02 and later CRs were
definitely a step back in performance power wise. In my opinion, The HPP valve engine was light years
better than the case reed, and I believe that design stumble hastened the defections to the four
strokes, at least among Honda riders.
dogger
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wow thats grate info i love this site :D
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i was suprised to see the stock Mikuni carb on that fancy bike. i thought a 38 PWK would have been used. did you do any testing with one?
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Hey westsiderippa - Man.... your story is so similar to many people out there. You prefer the two-stroke and want to race it but feel that you would be at a big disadvantage by choosing the two-stroke.
I hear you!!!
But the question is, are you really giving something up? Is the two-stroke really at a dis-advantage?
If you search your heart of hearts you will find that it does not have to be that way. You said "i raced a few events last year on my cr250 and can tell you first hand that displacement sucks. tracks like glen helen, hangtown, honey lake etc.. a 450 will eat up a 250 and thats just common sense." do you really believe that?
If so, that is the first "strike" against you.
As an example I will use a local Pro/Expert Racer in my area, Mike Leavitt. He too felt that in order to be competitive that he had to race the four-stroke bikes. He was on track to be a Pro racer, but had so many engine failures with his four-strokes that it was just crazy.
At mid-season in 2009 he finally had enough and parked his 450F and started to race his YZ250 two-stroke. He also raced the 25 Plus class with the same machine. What happened? His first race out on the two-stroke, he won all four motos!!!
He decided that he preferred the two-stroke and would beat the 450f's at their own game and he did. He won the 250 Expert (450F) and Plus 25 classes on his 250 two-stroke. The funny part of this story is that some people thought that he was cheating and using an over-bore!! But no one actually put up the protest fee, most likely for fear that it was only 250cc and they would look silly.
So the question for you is, do you really want to race the two-stroke? Because it can be done. Where can the 250 two-stroke beat the 450's?? In the corners. I know that so many people love jumps and jumping, but if you take the time to learn how to corner and get yourself into pretty good shape, you can win.
But you have another option as well... get a purpose built 300 MX machine! KTM has a bolt on kit for the 250SX and TM Racing has a purpose built 300MX... with the extra 50cc's you gain additional torque equal to or more than the 450F's and yet have a lighter machine. The best of all worlds.
I believe that you can do it!! Good luck!
By the way... congratulations on your engagement!
Why is no one suggesating this guy gets a Service Honda / Kawasaki 500?
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KXwestYZ - The main reason no one suggested it was these two comments in the opening post,
"im not willing to spend the coin on an AF 500 and really want to go 2t. "
and this one,
"so.. im thinking yz250 ktm 250sx. im leaning toward the yz because my mechanic i ride for is a master of that bike and the cost of parts will be cheaper and more readilly available."
Of course for some folks the Service Honda will be the best option and for others it may be a TM, Maico, Husqvarna, Gas Gas, KTM or even a Yamaha.
Our suggestions to him were based on his wants and needs....
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getting back to westsiderippa's original topic i will give my opinion even though it's worthless. i raced 500 MX for years and owned 3 CR500's and 3 KX500's between the the years '88-'03. as much as i love open 2T bikes they get harder to race the older you get. with job and family commitments as you get older finding the time to train for racing (riding for fun is a different story) them is difficult. hanging on to those brutes really takes it out of you quickly and if you can only ride on weekends that's another disadvantage being magnified by the big bike. the first time i rode a 450F at the track after getting off a 500 i couldn't believe how easy it was to ride. i think the 300cc idea is the way to go if you want to ride against 450F's. a 300 could have a broad power band with more torque and not be as peaky as a 250 making it easier to ride.
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i was suprised to see the stock Mikuni carb on that fancy bike. i thought a 38 PWK would have been used. did you do any testing with one?
Good catch admiral. Actually I did test several different carbs. These pictures were taken right after
the bike was completed. Quite a few changes were made throughout the season. I tried and liked the
Keihin 38mm PWK quad vent air striker better then the TMX but the final carb was a "boutique" Keihin
PWK with TPS and a power valve. That carb was programmed via a ton of testing and a JD dual map
ignition to provide a start powerband and, through the flick of a handlebar mounted switch after rounding
the first turn, a "rest of the race" powerband. The carb also performed better across the board than any
other carb I tried.
as much as i love open 2T bikes they get harder to race the older you get.
Man, that is a true statement. I have never been so hammered as I was after every open
class race I competed in. Even if you are a naturally smooth rider, those bikes will beat you
up and it only gets worse with age. I love riding the big two strokes, but if I ever raced one
again, it would be the only class I would enter that day - just for the extra recovery time
between motos.
dogger
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well, thank you all for your ideas here. i have multiple calls out looking for a 09 yz right now. i also have a few calls around on slightly used ones. my 450 is also forsale right now and i have a few interested in it. im sold on the yz but tracking one down is not as easy as i thought. also no one has 2010's around me yet and 7g's for a 2t, what? as for riding a 500, im not afraid of it and have rode them before. i ride 3-4 days a week year round. i have been training really hard this year and my focus right now is arean x. i really want to make it to vegas. a 500 would be out of control on an ax track. its hard enough trying to muscle a 450 around. my other goal is to try and make it through a qualifier to a regional. i know i wont make it to lorretas but to get to a regional this year is my goal. im lucky right now because im 32, only work 10 days a month, no kids and a lovely bride that supports racing.
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ok, found a dealer who actually likes 2t's. every call i made was the same old thing. "theres no more left but we have great deals on 09 450's" lol. anyway theres plenty 09 yz's left you just need to get off your a-- and find it. he wants 7300 OTD for it though. and said he wont budge on the price since he has to bring it in from the midwest. so its not like a loss to him if i dont buy it. if i buy one direct from the dealer who has it. it will be a wash with shipping etc. i could save money by not registering it and not paying taxes now but if want to sell it im hosed with paying it anyway. so it looks like my 450 should be gone this week then im pulling the trigger. im wiling to drive 4 hrs to this dealer just for his effort. one dealer real close to me said they dont make 2t's yz's anymore, HAHAH i just hung up on him. there are some real a-- clowns out there for sure. ill keep you all updated. thanks for the help, bryan.
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Congrats westsider!!!!
I'm doing exactly the same as you. Looking a 250 2 stroke and getting rid of my piggy 450F.
Until now I was unable to find the bike I want. I'll keep searching.
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as much as i love open 2T bikes they get harder to race the older you get.
Man, that is a true statement. I have never been so hammered as I was after every open
class race I competed in. Even if you are a naturally smooth rider, those bikes will beat you
up and it only gets worse with age. I love riding the big two strokes, but if I ever raced one
again, it would be the only class I would enter that day - just for the extra recovery time
between motos.
dogger
remember, we're talking about 500's that are a 20 year old design. A new from the ground up 500 using 2010 technology i bet would be far easier to ride. Imagine a 2011 KX500 that didn't vibrate. Or a 2011 CR500 with multi-level power options, similiar to what the sportbikes have. It simply isn't fair to compare state of the art 4 stroke technology with 1980's 2 stroke technology. and that's just the engine, forget about frames and suspension
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As far as racing goes I ustacould. After many years off the bike I tried a 2000 YZ426. Heavy bike that was easy to ride and handled like a dream. So I think 4T is for me and I buy it (used). I use and love the bike so much I do the "smart" thing and get myself a shiny new 03 YZ450 since 4T is the way to go. Worse bike I ever owned. It did not break, it just sucked to ride. Forks harsh, front end slides and those were the good points. The biggest gremlin was the way the power came on. I rode CR500's back in the day and I never detuned a bike untill this POS. Anyway I suffered five years with the bike riding with my kids now and then without much interest in my own riding. Up in NY at Ace at the end of 07 Sales gut from D-Rec says we got one 08 YZ250, you want it? I buy it without knowing anything about it other than I am going back to 2T to give riding one more try. This is long winded so I will sum it up like this. This is the best powered, best handling, by far best suspended bike I have ever owned. I am a kid again and now my kids get to ride a lot. 3rd season is 1/2 over (FL we ride all winter) and not one thing has ever broken. I feel guilty about top end but all the compression is still there. Anyway this is Rock solid to ride stock or to build up to any level.
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A new from the ground up 500 using 2010 technology i bet would be far easier to ride.
I agree with you. That's why I want to purchase a CR500AF, to test that theory out.
Anyway this is Rock solid to ride stock or to build up to any level.
Good move switching from the 450F. That YZ is about as good as it gets these days.
It was winning shootouts long before the others quit making theirs.
dogger
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as much as i love open 2T bikes they get harder to race the older you get.
Man, that is a true statement. I have never been so hammered as I was after every open
class race I competed in. Even if you are a naturally smooth rider, those bikes will beat you
up and it only gets worse with age. I love riding the big two strokes, but if I ever raced one
again, it would be the only class I would enter that day - just for the extra recovery time
between motos.
dogger
remember, we're talking about 500's that are a 20 year old design. A new from the ground up 500 using 2010 technology i bet would be far easier to ride. Imagine a 2011 KX500 that didn't vibrate. Or a 2011 CR500 with multi-level power options, similiar to what the sportbikes have. It simply isn't fair to compare state of the art 4 stroke technology with 1980's 2 stroke technology. and that's just the engine, forget about frames and suspension
there is alot of conjecture said about open 2T bikes on the internet, in bike shops, and at tracks. most of it is from people who have never ridden one much less owned one. or, my favorite, they rode someone's bike for 15 minutes and now and forever they are a 500cc expert. i have owned 6 different (3 of each) CR & KX 500's. they vibrate, they stretch your arms, there is tremendous centrifugal force of the engine, they constantly break traction. those things don't change with a modern frame or a new engine. i tested a Service Honda AF500 back in 2000 at a mx track for a full day. yes it handled better and had better suspension but i found that it vibrated more in the alluminum frame. i had my steel framed '00 model CR500 there to compare. i had my '99 KX500's crankshaft balanced by Surf n Turf racing. it cut the vibes by what seemed about 50%, but compared to a 250 it vibrated. there is no getting away from it. my hands and arms would have that feeling like when your foot falls asleep after a day at the track. this wasn't directed at you Chris2T, i just used your post for a quote. this is just a general statement about the realities that i think some people gloss over when talking about open 2T bikes.
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a 500 is out of the question fo myself because like the 450 it is a lot of power i dont need. the reason is now that i can ride in the 250f class with the 250 2t im all over that. and as for riding vet class where i will be handicapping myself, im all for it.
so i found another one witch is in fresno. he said 7k. its another 1-2 hrs of driving but the cost of fuel and the 300 dollar savings is a little better. also the guy was very helpful and really wanted my business, you could tell. he never once questioned my purchase of a 2t or tried to slip a stupid comment in like "you know i have these 09 450's for...." god that was getting so irritating.
got a guy coming sunday to pick up my crf, i left a deposit on the yz. so its a done deal. ill be racing that thing in 2 weeks. woohoo, i dont think i would pick the gate next me my first moto, gonna be a little squirly out of the gate, lol. man i cant wait.
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i found that it vibrated more in the alluminum frame.
That's not what I wanted to hear. I still plan to buy one mostly
because I don't know how much longer they will be around.
My goal is to do everything I can to make the bike easier to
ride fast and for a long time (30 minutes). Crank balancing,
250 ignition and flywheel, foam filled frame, lower compression
and higher gearing to smooth out the hit, etc. The bike will be
an open class test bed.
There is no getting around the power to weight ratio (that's the
best part). The trick is to get more of that power to the ground
without overly abusing the rider.
Should be an interesting and fun project.
now that i can ride in the 250f class with the 250 2t im all over that.
Amen to that. Let the fun begin.
dogger
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i tested a Service Honda AF500 back in 2000 at a mx track for a full day. yes it handled better and had better suspension but i found that it vibrated more in the alluminum frame. i had my steel framed '00 model CR500 there to compare. i had my '99 KX500's crankshaft balanced by Surf n Turf racing. it cut the vibes by what seemed about 50%, but compared to a 250 it vibrated. there is no getting away from it. my hands and arms would have that feeling like when your foot falls asleep after a day at the track. this wasn't directed at you Chris2T, i just used your post for a quote. this is just a general statement about the realities that i think some people gloss over when talking about open 2T bikes.
no offense taken, my point was that even a late model Service Honda CR500AF or KX500 AF uses an engine whose design goes back many years. Sacreligious i know, but it's an outdated engine design. Not that 60hp is outdated, but imagine a 2010 CRF450R used an engine based on the XR400? A modern 500 designed from the ground up with the very latest technology/electronics thrown at it could perhaps have rideability that is currently unheard of in a big bore 2 stroke. Unless of course there was no advancement in 2 stroke technology for the past 16 years or so, in which case there'd be no reason for a new engine.
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i found that it vibrated more in the alluminum frame.
That's not what I wanted to hear. I still plan to buy one mostly
because I don't know how much longer they will be around.
My goal is to do everything I can to make the bike easier to
ride fast and for a long time (30 minutes). Crank balancing,
250 ignition and flywheel, foam filled frame, lower compression
and higher gearing to smooth out the hit, etc. The bike will be
an open class test bed.
There is no getting around the power to weight ratio (that's the
best part). The trick is to get more of that power to the ground
without overly abusing the rider.
Should be an interesting and fun project.
now that i can ride in the 250f class with the 250 2t im all over that.
Amen to that. Let the fun begin.
dogger
those AF 500's are very cool bikes. i look forward to hearing more. i want to try out one of those AF KX500 models sometime. btw, the comp. ratio on a CR500 is only 6.25-1. i wish someone was building KTM 380SX motors in a modern KTM chassis. that would be my idea of the perfect open bike. my trusty '99 380SX is ready and willin'.
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so just a little update, i am officially without a bike in my garage right now, feels weird when i walk out there. got $3800 for my 450 yesterday and i will be picking up my new yz on thursday. thanks for all the motivation from everyone and all the tips. ill have pics up asap.
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When you over jump your first table or double and land on that little bump after the downside and are ready for crunch-ouch-my wrists-hope I make it and then somehow nothing bad happens you will love this thing. Give us a bike test report.
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good luck with your new bike, it sounds sweet