Two Stroke Motocross
Two Stroke Motocross Forum => Technical => Topic started by: Rota Ash on April 06, 2010, 02:05:32 AM
-
Hey has anyone heard of using a mix of Auto tranny oil with or as gearbox oil for bikes, a fella i know who used to ride kx250's used to run 100% red dextron 3 oil, i know in a lot of manual cars dex 3 is the bomb for smooth quick shifting. anyone on here run ATF or an aft mix of say 50/50 ??
-
Tranny oil in a smoker is a personal decision... I've run ATF for many years. I do change the oil frequently as its cheap and easy to change. I've never had a problem running ATF.
-
think i used aft once but it wasn anythig for me
used 10-30 motorex gear oil before
but use 10-40 mtx castrol now
i am a little lazy changing oil go by clutch feel
-
Been using ATF Type F for years, love it.
-
I've seen some long and heated discussions about this.
Personally i use Dexron III rated ATF and change it every ride, highly recommend it.
-
I was running Motul 10W40 in my Rm250 and it had a horrible grabbing clutch.
Changed to ATF and the bike had a great clutch.
-
I've used Type F ATF for over two decades.
The Great Oil Debate
There's a lot of myths about oils that are or not suitable for our machines, and most of them have absolutely no factual basis.
"Don't use an energy Conserving oil or your clutch will slip."
"You must use a JASO MA rated oil in your engine or you'll cause premature failure and wear."
The myth about automotive oils making your clutch slip started when the Energy Conserving (EC) standard came into being. EC oils have much lower levels of zinc and phosphorous, because these additives can damage a catalytic converter. And the word moly automatically makes people think that the moly additive will cause buildup on the plates which will lead to slippage. But the truth is there is nothing wrong with oils that contain moly, and in fact many motorcycle-specific oils contain moly. I have yet to see any evidence to show that any so-called "friction-modified" (Energy Conserving, or EC) oil will cause any problems. In fact, all engine oils have friction modifiers of some sort in them. The Energy Conserving designation (EC) was devised to denote oils that met new emissions standards requiring lower levels of phosphorous. The EC standard is about emissions, not friction.
Since the standard requires a reduction in useful additives such as phosphorous and zinc, the manufacturers had to come up with replacements. One of the additives that the oil engineers can use to bring the lubrication properties back to the level that it was with the higher levels of phosphorus is molybdenum (moly).
The problem with the belief that the moly additive will make clutches slip is that oil companies don't use the form of moly that would cause this problem, Molybdenum Disulfide MoS2. That type of moly is typically used for the formulation of industrial gear lubes, chain lubes, and greases, not engine or transmission oils.
Engine oil formulators use Molybdenum DialkyldiThioCarbamate. This formulation of moly has been proven in both lab testing and actual use to not cause clutch problems at any level you are ever going to find in an oil bottle.
The funny thing is, many people will start beating the "moto-specific-oil" drum, and try to tell you that if you don't use motorcycle oil, your clutch will slip. But in fact, many JASO MA rated (certified for use in a wet-clutch environment) moto-specific oils contain levels of moly that are much higher than any EC-rated automotive oil. So if it's bad in an automotive oil, why then is it perfectly acceptable in a motorcycle oil?
Even the JASO MA rating is itself a scam in my opinion. All it means is that an oil has been submitted for certification as to it's ability to operate in a wet clutch environment. That does not, however, mean that a non- JASO MA oil will not perform equally well in the same wet-clutch environment. Many oils are simply not submitted for this certification, beca7use the manufacturers are not specifically targeting the motorcycle market, so they do not wish to invest the time and money required to obtain that certification. And in fact, there are more than a few motorcycle specific oils on the market that do not have the JASO MA certification.
Most any oil will be acceptable in your tranny, as long as it is changed at reasonable intervals. The problem is, what would be considered a reasonable interval for any other engine is not a reasonable interval for our bikes. The real enemy of oil in our trannies is in contamination from the clutch, and viscosity-shear from the gear teeth. The only solution for those problems is frequent oil changes. In most cases, choosing an oil that your budget allows you to change frequently is better than choosing a much more expensive oil that you aren't willing to change as often because of the high cost.
So called "diesel" oils are nothing more than automotive oils with a more robust additive package, especially higher detergent levels. Some of the best performing oils that you can find for our trannies are diesel oils such as Delo and Rotella T. And some of those high-dollar "boutique" moto-specific oils will shear out of viscosity faster than a standard off-the-shelf auto oil. Most oils will shear out of viscosity in our transmissions, under race conditions, in as little as 4 hours. If that doesn't convince you of the need for frequent changes, then nothing will.
I Use ATF type F in my two-stroke trannies. It's an excellent choice for a wet clutch environment, it has better thermal stability and shear resistance than most engine oils. It's also very cheap at $1.29 a quart, so I change it after every ride. You can also use gear oil, or any good engine oil. How often you change it is more important than what you put in it.
I use the ATF in my KX250. For my YZ250F, I use Shell Rotella 10W40. I change it every 3-4 hours.
Of course, there will always be the nay-sayers that will swear that you are leading your machine to an early death if you don't run those so-called "moto-specific" JASO MA oils, or that you are going to do damage to your clutch. And that's just such a crock. There are many motorcycle oils that do not have the JASO MA rating, as well as many automotive oils that meet or exceed the same standards but simply haven't been submitted for certification because they aren't targeted at the motorcycle market. But, since so many dealers (that make a huge profit on oil sales) try to convince riders that they are doing their machines a disservice by not using these products, and the myth is perpetuated on sites such as this, the debate goes on and on...and it will probably never be resolved. But if running that high-dollar moto-specific oil makes you feel better, then by all means, use it, there's something to be said for the feel-good factor, after all.
-
I've always run Pro Honda Hi Perf. 80w/85w Tranny Fluid in all my bikes,2 stroke and 4 strokes for years w/o a problem with clutches or anything else
-
I have used ATF type F for at least 10 years with great results.
-
I've always used Motul Transoil Epert 10W40. The only problem is that on a cold engine, the clutch discs stick to each other, resulting in poor clutch responsability, especially when you try a "push start"
who knows, is it possible to use ATF to refill the rear shock?
-
who knows, is it possible to use ATF to refill the rear shock?
anything's possible.
-
A friend of mine was at the Six Days once and had a conversation with an oil rep. The oil rep told my friend that all suspension lubricants are derived from ATF sources. For example, old fashioned 10wt fork oil is Type F ATF(Ford) and other weights are Mercedes Benz, Toyota ATF and so on and soforth.
-
who knows, is it possible to use ATF to refill the rear shock?
anything's possible.
What do you mean, buddy ??? I don/t want my shock to get stiff on a landing, or that kind of thing... :))))
-
who knows, is it possible to use ATF to refill the rear shock?
anything's possible.
What do you mean, buddy ??? I don/t want my shock to get stiff on a landing, or that kind of thing... :))))
well it was kind of a tounge in cheek answer. i mean, you could try ATF as it does have a high viscosity index. i'm not sure if it is as high as shock fluid which generally has a vi of around 400. for me personally, i just use Motul, Silkolene, Redline, etc. shock fluid as i am not into that kind of experimentation. i don't mind taking a shock back apart for a valving change but to have to pull it apart because of using a substandard fluid and experiencing massive shock fade is a waste of time and nitrogen to me. but i'm not an oil chemist. who knows? maybe that Mobil 1 ATF is just like suspension fluid.
-
Use what works for you-within reason.ATF is ok,most recommend type F.I've tried it and found initially shifting etc was great but deteriorated quickly.I like bel ray gear saver myself-motul is ok but doesn't work as good imo.
As for some of what you've read above-don't confuse motorcycle gear oil with the 80/90w gear oil(don't use that) in auto applications.It's not the same.
Don't use a modern day auto oil.After reading endless debate by "net experts" I tried it.After 4 flushes and a plate dismantle and scuffing,my clutch stopped slipping.Your results may differ-or not.
Diesel oil isn't a better modern day car oil.It's basically a high detergent auto oil from 10 years ago-without the current auto additive packages and therefore,makes a fine bike oil-esp 4t engine/clutch.
-
What pressure should be there in the rear shock?
-
What pressure should be there in the rear shock?
You didn't try to check it with an air guage did you??? That's a big no-no! The slight amount that you will lose with a standard air guage is enough to render the shock useless.
The actual pressure varies from manufacturer to manufacturer, but the general ball park will be in the 145-165 psi range.
-
How many bar is it? I have a special hi-pressure pump with exact measurement. When i pumped it to 15 bar and it seemed bumpy, so i reduced it to 12 bar.
-
145-165 psi = 10-11.4 bar
-
How many bar is it? I have a special hi-pressure pump with exact measurement. When i pumped it to 15 bar and it seemed bumpy, so i reduced it to 12 bar.
Are you putting air in your shock?
-
How many bar is it? I have a special hi-pressure pump with exact measurement. When i pumped it to 15 bar and it seemed bumpy, so i reduced it to 12 bar.
Are you putting air in your shock?
Yep. Is that wrong or what??? I ain't no ridin 16 miles to the city to pump nitrogen! :) We have pretty many cops in there. :(
-
For the topic:today i met a fella on KX-125 and after day ridin' together i asked him for a ride. So, when i was ridin it, it seemed like no gearbox at all! never seen such a smooth shifting I returned it and asked, what does he put in the gearbox... He said... AGIP 2t! He filled the gearbox with premix oil and it runs great...!
-
Air is wrong.I'd use it in a pinch but get it out asap.Nitrogen is better than air air in many ways-larger molecule,harder to compress,less sensitive to temp,won't absorb moisture like air etc,etc.Moreover,that's what your shock is designed to be run with.
As for the 2t oil in the tranny-it will work for a while but will cause premature damage.
-
Well, huh, the air is 78% nitrogen, though.
-
Air will migrate through your shock bladder and contaminate your shock oil.
-
i used to be a chemist. The oxygen will somehow squeeze through bladders, seals and shit, while the remaining nitrogen is supposed to last and last.
-
When you were a chemist you didn't inject the results of your labours into your veins did you Fox? :o :-X ;)
-
are we talking osmosis here... I just love using that word ;D And what oxygen, from the compress air?
-
When you were a chemist you didn't inject the results of your labours into your veins did you Fox? :o :-X ;)
;)
-
When you were a chemist you didn't inject the results of your labours into your veins did you Fox? :o :-X ;)
Screw you! :))) I didn't! :)))) However, i have had serious problems with law due to invention a new and powerful explosive.
-
I really think it's nothing wrong in using air.
-
When you were a chemist you didn't inject the results of your labours into your veins did you Fox? :o :-X ;)
Screw you! :))) I didn't! :)))) However, i have had serious problems with law due to invention a new and powerful explosive.
As a result of pumping too much air in to your shock maybe? :o ;)
-
mmmmm, I like explosions :D
-
Nope, my rear shock is still alive, although i pumped it to 14 bar, but it seemed bumpy, so i reduced to 12 bar :)